Writers out there - what about genders?

[Olorin_TLA]

I decided to start a new thread not to clutter up the "Are you writing serious fantasy II" thread, but could we have a quick poll to see if most people main/non-main characters are the same gender as they are?

And what do they look/act like? Do they tend to be a little like you, or are similarities only becuase you don't wantto wirte about a blue-skinned fantasy-hater?

For me, most of my protagonists are male, like meself. In fact, practically all are. It's no that I doubt my ability to write as a woman...it's just that...I haven't really.

They don't look that much like me, but at the same time there aren't any short ones really, and I have my fair share of "swarthy" people everywhere with dark hair. But I have plenty of other type,of many vairedothertypes,as well,and none if it was aconcious-appearence thing. As for behaviour, well, they're nice people who I'd like, , and they would share quite a fewof my views, but that;sbecause i don't WANT to waste what little time I have on this earth writing about people I DON'T like!

[Son of Númenor]

When I write a short story, I almost exclusively use men as main characters. I am not confident in my ability to create a believable female heroine, since my writing is most often based on or inspired by personal experiences & I generally try to have my characters reflect how my thought process would be in the situation I am writing about. Having never been a woman or thus having never seen if there are any major internal differences in the thought processes of women & men, I do not really feel qualified to attempt to write from the vantage point of a woman.

To tie this back in with Professor Tolkien somehow:

I think J.R.R. Tolkien probably felt the same way to an extent, which is why his important female characters tended to represent ideals - Eowyn desires to take an equal part in war as men, no visible motivations are ascribed to Lúthien besides her immense love for Beren, Galadriel is a wise matriarchal leader, & Arwen is a beautiful princess party to a mysterious love with one of The Lord of the Rings' main protagonists . I am not saying that these characters are shallow or that they necessarily lack depth of personality, but merely that they come across as, to a degree, representing different points on the spectrum of female literary creations of Tolkien's time period, rather than as characters that Tolkien is comfortable describing in their everyday lives like Frodo & Bilbo. This (& it is just my own interpretation, & not necessarily the right one) seems attributable to the fact that Tolkien was a man, & did not possess a high degree of confidence in creating unique, subtle female characters whose personas & motivations could blend seamlessly with the plot of his stories in lead-role capacities.

[symestreem]

I have always written main characters of the same gender as myself, for the reasons Son of Numenor said, but I have many supporting characters of the opposite gender.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

I always base one of the main characters on myself, that way I'll be able to write them easier, I'll know what they are thinking, and be able to put it down on paper. Another note would be that I normally write my characters into siduations that I, myself have been in. But yes, normally my main characters are female. I also tend to write in an evil female character, though not always the main evil, for the same reasons.

But I also write in at least one character that's male, and has a leading role, that way my stories don't become blind out Mary-Sues. Also, they tend to need some male guidance in the stories anyhow, though I will NOT write romance! Ick.

But yeah, that's my thoughts here.

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Since the Books forum is really reserved for discussions of Tolkien's books, I'm moving the writers' threads to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to share ideas there!

[Carlas]

I don't write much original fantasy, but in all the RPGs I have played in I have always been a male, the opposite gender. I had wanted to challenge myself when I first started RPing so I decided to be a male. Ever since then, I have always ended up as a male character, whether it was because I just enjoyed being a male or the RPG called for it. In the few short things I have written though, my main characters were mainly female.

[Sirithheruwen]

Well, since I was the one who started this, I better reply with the advice I got. (Oh, BTW, Olorin, great idea to put it on another thread!)

My characters are female. My male main characters turn out flat and boring. Even *I* am unable to relate to them. (And that's really bad!) As a sollution, Imladris (I think...) suggested that you study any males that you might have around you such as fathers, brothers, or guys at school/work. Study their ways, and then see what you come up with. Another suggestion, by Olorin (I believe) was to stick one of the male BDers into one of your stories and see what you come up with. (This would only be practice, of course.)

But I also write in at least one character that's male, and has a leading role, that way my stories don't become blind out Mary-Sues.

I think it's always good to write in at leasst one opposite-gender-of-the-main-character character. Otherwise you might seem biased or something. Unless there is an all one-gender world...hmmm...

[Lhundulinwen]

So far most of my main characters (especially when I write from their perspective) have been female, like me. But generally, the evil characters will be male or more of an asexual character. In my current novel, I think the evil will be more of a council of lesser evils, making up as a whole a larger evil. There will, of course, be females on the council. I think the reason I don't usually write from the perspective of males is because the only close male friend I have (no, I've never had a boyfriend, so don't go there) is so enigmatic. I can't understand him at all somedays, but I love him all the more for it. My female friends, I can usually predict what they'll say, what they're thinking, and to a certain extent what mood they are in whitin seconds of seeing them. Not that they are boring or shallow, its just that I can read they're body language and the slightest outward twitch, and know what's going on with them. I just DO NOT understand the opposite sex's thoughts and reasonings.

I think it is very important to have a mix of characters. An audience must have someone to relate too. If your audience is mainly preteen girls, go ahead and cut the leading men down to one or two, and feel free to talk about all your female gripes (and pains). But if your audience is diverse, its best to have a character that everyone can find a trait (physical can work, but emotional flaws eg. anger issues work the best) that they can relate too, and 'latch' on too for the diration of the story. That's just my opinon though.

[Lyta_Underhill]

Not that I've ever finished anything fanfiction-wise that I'm writing, but, for some reason, I rarely make up main original characters in fanfiction; in my original fiction, I have written females mostly, but the story called for it. Most of my attempts at fanfiction are written in omniscient voice and have only a few peripheral female characters. The main focus is an exploration of existing characters. So far the focus has been on Frodo and on Pippin (in two different stories), my two favorite LOTR characters. As to whether they are like me, well, only in some ways! In a super-long original Bildungsroman-type fiction, however, the main character was me. But I'd never put her in a fanfiction, especially not in Middle Earth!

i don't WANT to waste what little time I have on this earth writing about people I DON'T like!

I would think this would be a rewarding and enlightening exercise, to force yourself to really think about what drives someone you absolutely despise and then write him or her faithfully according to what you figure out. If you did it well, you might even find you feel rather sorry for that character, and it would rise above the person upon whom you based it.

Cheers!
Lyta

[Olorin_TLA]

Ah, I can see what you mean...I do have characters (hoguh not the main-main protagonists (although a couple have ended up killing their best friends/close family, with varying degrees of "blame" (as opposed to them not intednign it to go so far)) who aren't the kind I'd like. What I really meant was that none of my characters are like some people I've met in real life - ultimately petty, unreasonable, etc. Even my evilest villains are at least not that! I understand that it could be a very enlightening process...however, there are a few people I know who are so extremely petty, etc, where nothing gets through to them, that I think that if I wrote as them I'd end up writing something abominable (to me), as they'd just be so stubborn they'd drive the reader (or author) made! Just my humble opinion though.

[Imladris]

Nearly all my characters, especially on RPG games, are the opposite gender. I don't know why, but I prefer to write male -- probably because they are so cool. Though I do have one story that has an all female cast...But males can do so many more things than females, and I find that it is very easy to turn the heroine into a wanna-be-male who can do everything (if not better!) than a guy can. Eowyn, thank goodness wasn't like that.

[Sirithheruwen]

But males can do so many more things than females

Do tell.

[Lhundulinwen]

Well said Child of the Seventh Age! Personally, most of my works, including my current project, is not exactly a middle earth world. It is not modern, ie- bows and arrows & swords, instead of M-16s, but there are things that are traditional fantasy creatures except they have a twist. (Shape-shifting Unicorn becuase of its status, half centaur half man, gets to choose shape.) So, why should I use sterotypical characters at all? Especiall based on gender?
My half centaur character is a male. But he's torn between two cultures much like animagrant (sp.). He doesn't have to be the fighting, or thoughtful man. He's going to be a different character by the middle of the book, and completely different by the end. He will have the chance to develop, and be a three-diminsonal character.
Sterotypical characters MUST grow and change in the story to be believable. Example- The spoilt kid from the Narnia series. (I can't remember his name- He was in the Voyage book) He started as the typical spoilt brat, but he became the noble hero type. If he had stayed as he was in the begining, by the end of the book, you'd want to chunk him out ofthe story, never mind if he's central to the plot.
My point is even if your world is more mideval, put a twist on it. That's what makes stories worth reading and becoming a favorite. I believe that the whole point of writing is to be original; even if its already been said, say it a little differently. Its the hardest thingin the world, but I love every minute of it.

[Lhundulinwen]

Very nice post, Nurumaiel. I agree that all women (all characters, in fact) should be warriors in that sense. Actually, a lot of fantasy, excluding LOTR, do not have that many battle scenes. The characters you were talking about, seem to have a lot of opportunity to grow, and learn more about themselves and their world.
At least for me, to develop characters, you must have a strong plot generally with more than one problem. These characters have several potential problems they may have to deal with. For my characters to develop strongly, I generally make a mental list of all their flaws, physical, emotional and in relationships, and pick and choose which ones will be changed, or come to terms with, by the ending. I never change all their flaws, and sometimes I encourage them to make new ones, especailly if this character has been around a while (like in a series). All these changes I space out in the story, with some happening as a result of something and others gradually as the character matures.

[Eowyn Skywalker]

Perhaps I'm an oddball, but....most of the stories I write, if not all, have at least two protagonists-- 1 male and 1 female.

Not odd in the least, as, though my main characters in both of my main stories are female, there are at least one or more male characters to contrast them, and hold a main part. Like Tiana and Destiny... they both have their male contracting characters, to off-set the fact that they are female. Alenece has three other males with her, to contrast, though I intend on throwing in a few other girls later.

But it's not odd in the least to have more then one protagonists... I have done that all the time.

No, it's always a good idea to off-set girls with guys, and it doesn't have to be a romance either... so far I have... well... two characters in love, but not the main plot... the main plot is very action-drama type.

Girls are fun to write, but I always have a few guys in there well I'm at it... makes for a better plot line, I think.

-Eowyn Skywalker

[Orual]

Myself, my main project has a young man named Jules as the hero. However, though he's the narrator, one of my favorite characters is a young woman who meets him along the way.

With me, it's entirely dependant on the story. Some of my stories have female main characters, some have males. In Jules' case, I felt that he should be a young man. He has a sister who is a pivotal part of the story, and I felt that, were he a girl, he would understand his sister entirely too well.

Writing women is actually fairly difficult for me, if only because I have to struggle against the "tough warrior chick" prototype. One of the best heroines I've ever seen is--and don't laugh--Buffy from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I try to model my heroines after her. She's a girl who kicks, but her being a girl isn't the most important part of her character. She's genuine and heartfelt, and cares about things that real girls care about even as she fights evil.

The important thing is the character. I don't think about gender much--generally, when I'm starting a story that'll go somewhere, the main character comes to me in a blinding flash of light. Okay, I'm lying, but wouldn't that be cool? I chose Jules because I felt I could make him a rounded, realistic character by bringing my own feminine traits to his character, instead of making him a stereotypical "macho" man. I think that everyone is a combination of masculine and feminine aspects, and that people are neither true simpering damsels-in-distress nor unflappable macho warriors with testosterone poisoning. Everyone is somewhere in between. I know a lot of young women who are aggressive, and a lot of young men who are sensitive. This is true of everybody. As long as you don't go overboard with reverse-stereotypes (i.e. all the women are warriors and all the men need saving), it's okay to mix-and-match with characters.

[Saraphim]

When I start writing for a character, I sort of let it choose its own gender. My little "world" that I'm staring to invent, is set in the future, which is a convienient time to set a story in because one can make things up without having to be historically accurate.

Anyway, in all of my little "storylets" (plots that are unfinished and vastly unwritten), men and women are equal.

I'll break it down further than that. Individuals are equal, no matter what gender, in everything that goes on. And it's not just on a lawful scale or anything, it's on a global, ingrained-into-the-conciousness scale. If you understand what I'm saying.

So, as an example, you've got Bob, Tim, Judy, and Nora. Nora is a weak person, weaker than everyone except Tim, who is lazy and couldn't fight a drunken fly. The strongest person in the group is Bob, not because he's a man, but because he's Bob.

Looking back over my post, not much of it makes sense, so apologies all around. It's the best I can do.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Nurumaiel,

Nice post! I think that we are actually saying the same thing only using different terminology. As I said before, whether or not a character (male or female) carries a sword is far less important than other things.

Strangely enough though, the image of a warrior or battler, even if we define it as someone who focuses on struggles other than the physical, appeals to me less than certain other images. I have always thought in terms of a traveller, someone who sets a foot out their door and starts down a Road. That was one reason I was so struck by The Hobbit when I first read it so long ago. Both Hobbit and LotR use this as a central image: being swept away by the Road of Life and having to face and deal with everyone and everything that life brings. I think that this pertains equally to both Men and Women, although the specifics of the encounter may vary. I try to incorporate that sense in each of my characters to the best that I can.

While we're talking about choices of "gender", I'd also like to raise the related question of "age". Have you ever used an "older" character in your writings, male or female? Just how old, and was that easy or difficult to do?

[Araréiel]

I always use males as the heroes. Just something...not right...about females saving the world. Okay, so Eowyn was cool, but masculine. And what man reading a piece of writing wants a manly woman? And what woman reading fantasy wants to read about a woman rather than a man she can fantasize about? (You women out there know it's true!!)

I usually make the heroes good looking (okay, downright hot), but unsure of themselves, desperate to prove something, even if their "places in society" are high-born. And they have women and stuff. And servants because I make a society. Stuff that doesn't make sense bugs me.

[PaleStar]

Not to get into an issue, but there is nothing wrong with a strong heroine, though so few authors are able to create them without delving into Mary-sue land..a very, evil place.
If you don't believe me, read Ella Enchanted. No, don't see the movie, read the book; Ella is possibly my favorite heroine in books, except Eowyn. *sighs* there just aren't that many to choose from.
Age, gender, speicies, race, they all matter; say, to use Eowyn Skywalker's example, what if a three year old demon( in the asian sense of the word) child were to pick up a sword?
All this stuff is part of what makes writing so hard.

[VanimaEdhel]

I always use males as the heroes. Just something...not right...about females saving the world. (Araréiel)

Well, firstly, as long as you do not make them Superheroine, it can be quite an enjoyable read. Also, who says that the protagonist has to be an in-your-face, save-the-world heroine? Writing about females could even involve, as I mentioned earlier, one involved in action, but does not really end up being the number one hero of the story. Today, I actually picked up The Pillars of Creation. Now many people do not like Terry Goodkind - even I will be the first to admit that he can be downright frustrating every now and again - but in this story, one of the major plotlines follows a girl, Jennsen. She is supposedly skilled with a knife, but it is not as though she ever takes on five heavily-armed men on her own (so far, I only read the first two-hundred pages today). Although she is supposedly attractive, it fits due to her heritage. Other aspects may seem rather cliché, such as her being an illegitimate child, but Goodkind even blends that into the story rather well.

At the same time, though, while a sense of normality is necessary to a hero to make them human, we all have to add something to them that makes them even able to do what they are doing. Just to be the hero of a fantasy story, there has to be something that makes them unique. I mean it's not as though John Doe in Fairytale Land is going to randomly pick up a sword and decide to save the world. If he is a normal person, usually it's a remarkable event or catastrophe that makes them take action. Sadly, the "your father isn't really your father," "mysterious men are hunting you," and "it's your job to save the world because you have mysterious powers" excuses are overused in my opinion these days. And while modesty is an admirable trait, the "why me?" stubbornness of modern heroes is rather annoying. I mean to dwell on it for a chapter or two is all right (actually a natural shock reaction), but when you've read three series in which the hero is like that for at least four seven-hundred-page books of the series, it gets old.