LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 06 - Lothlórien

[Estelyn Telcontar]

At the beginning of this chapter, we still follow the Fellowship within the realm of the Dwarves, seeing Durin’s Stone and Mirrormere. Danger is not yet over, so they must hasten their steps. Frodo’s mithril shirt is revealed, and he hears (and later sees) traces of Gollum throughout the journey. Boromir again shows his stubbornness in protesting against their entering Lothlórien, and it is certainly no chance (as far as the storytelling goes) that Aragorn’s comment on the peril that one brings with one’s self into that land is spoken to Boromir – a premonition?

With the crossing of the Nimrodel, the Fellowship enters Lothlórien. Here the story takes a turn; though there is still action, the language becomes more poetic. Legolas has his opportunity to shine here, being the one who is connected with the Elves, has some knowledge of Lothlórien, recites the poem of Nimrodel – and touches upon the old enmity between Dwarves and Elves, which flares up later with the blindfolding issue. He is responsible for the successful “first contact” with the Lothlórien Elves, since they heard him speaking and recognized him as one of their kin.

There are some “magical” things mentioned in this chapter – Nimrodel is said to have healing powers, and the Elven rope glimmers in the dark.

Haldir is introduced, and he has much to say in these passages, many very poetic utterances. Frodo is shown to be especially affected by the atmosphere in the woods of Lothlórien. As the chapter ends at Cerin Amroth, he (and through his eyes, we) gets a glimpse of the inside and outside world in contrast. And we get another very brief look into Aragorn’s heart, as he remembers Arwen here.

There are so many quotable sentences in this chapter – what are your favorite parts, and what is important in the development of the story?

I find Aragorn’s words at the beginning of the chapter very significant, foreshadowing Sam’s later experience:

What hope have we without you? [i.e. Gandalf] We must do without hope.

And one sentence that cracks me up every time I read it is Sam’s reaction after Legolas has told them that they “breathe so loud that they could shoot you in the dark”:

…behind [climbing the tree] came Sam trying not to breathe loudly.

I find that hilarious!

[Boromir88]

There is a boatload of information, and thoughts, that I wish to bring up, tis a good chapter this one is.

First off Boromir.

"A plain road, though it led through a hedge of swords," said Boromir. "By strange paths has this Company been led, and so far to evil fortune. Against my will we passed under the shades of Moria, to our loss. And now we must enter the Golden Wood, you say. But of that perilous land we have heard in Gondor, and it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed."

In Boromir's words hold truth, actually, he is slightly hinting he wishes to lead the company, that we can tell. But, also in his words about Lorien. Interesting how later on in the Chapter we have...

"Orophin has now gone in haste back to our dwellings to warn our people. None of the Orcs will ever return out of Lorien."

The Gondorian loremen have obviously misunderstood the tales of Lorien, but they are true, here we get to hear from Haldir saying no orcs will ever leave. And later, we see the Company is very reluctant to leave Lorien, especially Gimli. Boromir just misinterprets it as a place of evil, and a place they shouldn't go in.

On to my next point.

"Come with me Frodo!" cried the dwarf, springing from the road. "I would not have you go without seeing Kheled-Zaram."

"A Dwarf!" cried Haldir. "That is not well. We have not had dealings with the Dwarves since the Dark Days. They are not permitted in our land. I cannot allow him to pass."
"But he is from the lonely Mountain, one of Dain's trusty people, and friendly to Elrond," said Frodo. "Elrond himself chose him to be one of our companions, and he has been brave and faithful."

My point is, it's interesting how Frodo is the first to jump to Gimli's defense. Reminds me of the strong friendship between Gloin and Bilbo. Now we see a growing friendship between their heirs.

"I did not shoot, for I dared not arouse any cries: we cannot risk battle. A strong company of Orcs has passed. They crossed the Nimrodel - curse their foul feet in its clean water! - and went on down the old road besied the river.

Definately some sense of troubling days ahead if companies of Orcs are crossing into Lorien.

This takes me to my final point.

"You had no need of your burdens" said Haldir. "It is cold in the tree-tops in winter."

We have some Seasonal Symbolism here in the closing chapters of The Fellowship of The ring. It's winter, and symbolic wise Spring=birth (or you might want to say a "new beginning") Summer=youth-early adulthood, Autumn=adulthood, and Winter=death. I'll make it short, sweet, and good to the point, Gandalf dies in January fighting the Balrog, Boromir dies in February defending the Hobbits. And theoretically that becomes the "death" or "breaking" of the Fellowship.

P.S. I find this rather ironic...

"Then dig a hole in the ground," said Legolas, "if that is more after the fashion of your kind"

Just ironic how Legolas is correct, and plus hmmm, sounds like what the Mirkwood Elves do to stay away from them dreaded spiders.

[Lhunardawen]

With peril pressing around the Fellowship in the previous chapter, they have not the time to ponder on the effects Gandalf's death would have, nor what they felt concerning the tragedy. But as they escaped immediate danger and found their way towards the land of Lothlorien, it was inevitable for them to finally let their emotions out. The first thing they obviously felt was sadness and a deep sense of loss, but to it was eventually added hopelessness. As far as this chapter is concerned, I was quite aware that Gandalf alone knew the way they have to take, or at the least had any idea which roads they should use. But without him, where would they go? Does the Fellowship rely solely on him that in his passing, they would have to admit defeat and return to Rivendell? So far, they have not, and they continued to plod on.

To be consistent in counting the Aragorn swoon-worthiness points, I would like to point out his just decision about the blindfolding issue. Sure, it may be difficult to accept that a kin of the dwellers of the land would have to endure such inconvenience, but I believe that Aragorn was merely trying to keep the Fellowship together. They have already lost one member, and there is no need for further harm to be done by such a petty issue. I think this would have been Gandalf's decision as well. Their acceptance of Aragorn's suggestion (albeit hesitantly at first) shows that they have chosen him to replace Gandalf as leader.

Sigh...so many interesting points...so little time. More later (I hope).

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

In Boromir's words hold truth, actually, he is slightly hinting he wishes to lead the company, that we can tell. But, also in his words about Lorien. Interesting how later on in the Chapter we have...

The Gondorian loremen have obviously misunderstood the tales of Lorien, but they are true, here we get to hear from Haldir saying no orcs will ever leave. And later, we see the Company is very reluctant to leave Lorien, especially Gimli. Boromir just misinterprets it as a place of evil, and a place they shouldn't go in.




.

While I think you were a bit mean to Haldir - it was the sea he was keen to know about... although he admittedly is less interested in the Hobbits than Theoden, it is an interesting point about Boromir and provides an interesting comparison with Faramir's conversation with Frodo regarding Lorien and Galadriel. Faramir would have known the same legends as Boromir and probably many more since he was more interested in Lore and sought to learn as much as possible from Gandalf, and he has a rather more positive view. Of course the tale of Mithrellas may have been too much of an after thought to be fully integrated into the story, but I wonder if Faramir had been there in his brother's stead, if he would have been as uncomfortable. Boromir has no sense that Lothlorien has a place, no matter how distant in his heritage ( through his mother Finduilas of Dol Amroth). The first time we meet Faramir he is talking Sindaarin as a language of choice. Presumably, Boromir spoke Elvish but it is no sign that it makes him more at ease at Rivendell and Lorien. I imagiene this is allied to his being more akin in spirit to the men of Rohan, a people who "won" their land and kingship in deeds of battle. I wonder if there is also an implicit desire to break with the past and the Numenorean heritage. I suspect that if Boromir had acceded to the stewardship and Aragorn had not been around, he might have tried to become a king.

[Firefoot]

I think one of the more humorous aspects of this chapter is the Elves' reception of the hobbits:

"We had not heard of - hobbits, of halfilings, for many a long year, and did not know that any yet dwelt in Middle-earth."

This coming from Elves is very interesting, being that the Elves are the ones that are passing over the sea. It is followed by:

"You do not look evil!"

and later:

"The four hobbits shall climb up here and stay with us - we do not fear them!"

It would seem that something that the Elves had heard before would lead them to believe that hobbits are an "evil" race - how ironic that hobbits are quite the opposite: so peace-loving and absorbed in themselves that they don't really need rules except because they have always been there! They say that they had once heard of hobbits; perhaps these might be those of Gollum's kind? Geographically, they were very close. This would not account for the evil connotations of hobbits however; I find it very unlikely that they may have heard of Gollum (certainly would have been enough to set their minds against hobbits) because they did not recognize him when he entered Lothlorien. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe old tales about hobbits (like those in Rohan) were somehow contorted so that the true facts were long forgotten.

[Boromir88]

As I finished reading this chapter last night, I have some "final" final remarks. The fact that we get some words of wisdom from Haldir, and maybe a hint into the future.

"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who oppose him. Yet so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlorien, unless maybe in Rivendell, that we dare not by our own trust endanger our land. We live upon an island amid many perils, and our hands are more often upon the bowstring than upon the harp."

Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who oppose him.
Can't begin to say how "wise" this is, The Fellowship is about to break apart, Rohan is falling into decline and the effect of that they began slipping away from their allies Gondor. Haldir just said Lothlorien doesn't trust anyone, perhaps Rivendell. So, the elves are apart in their own seperate world. The Dwarves of Erebor are up defending their lands alone (excluding the men of Dale). Instead of coming together, like in the Last Alliance, they are all seperated from eachother fighting their own war against Sauron. They oppose Sauron but they don't fight together, it isn't until Aragorn and Gandalf stir up Rohan where we see a sense of Unity. And the great symbolism in the bond between the future king of Gondor and the future King of Rohan (anyway that is off topic). I just went on rambling there for a while.

It's funny how it isn't until they reach Cerin Amroth when we see "ease" drop upon the fellowship. They have reached the safe haven of Lorien, but there's still an ill sense about as orcs are entering into the lands and Haldir has hinted of having to fight them off.

"You ought at least to guess, since you have seen us," said Merry. "There are elf-havens west of my land, the Shire, where Hobbits live."
"Happy folk are Hobbits to dwell near the shores of the sea!" said Haldir. "It is long indeed since any of my folk have looked on it, yet still we remember it in song. Tell me of these havens as we walk."

I think we see here more of the arrogance of elves, Haldir isn't concerned about the Shire, it's how's their own elf-haven in the Grey Havens. "oh yay, hobbits happy people, they live by elves, tell me of the elves there?" He isn't like Theoden who is interested in learning about Hobbits, only interested in hearing about his own kind. (I still like you Haldir).

[davem]

’Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth’

Actually, Lorien is also pretty much in the geographical centre of Middle earth - or at least of the map of Middle earth. I think this is significant. We have reached a ‘centre’, the ‘heart’ of Middle earth, the heart from which everything radiates out, the source of the Otherworld in Lord of the Rings.

The Fellowship cross two rivers - Nimrodel & Celebrant - & enter a world outside Time. A death has preceded this entry, another death will follow, but within this ‘world’ time, & death, the inevitable consequence of our existence in the world of time does not exist:

As soon as he set foot upon the far bank of Silverlode a strange feeling had come upon him, & it deepened as he walked on into the Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, & was now walking in a world that was no more. In rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lorien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world. Evil had been seen & heard there, sorrow had been known: the Elves feared & distrusted the world outside: wolves were howling on the wood’s borders: but on the land of Lorien no shadow lay...

It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. ...No blemish or sickness or deformity could be seen in anything that grew upon the earth. On the land of Lorien there was no stain.

On the land of Lorien there is no shadow, no stain, no ‘blemish’ or ‘sickness’ or ‘deformity’:

Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone & passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor & niphredil in fair Lothlorien.

Lothlorien is the ‘dreamflower’. It is a land that exists primarily in a waking dream, outside time. Yet its as true to say that the outer world is a dream (Frodo does say as much to Merry at the end:

Well here we are, just the four of us that started out together.’ said Merry. ‘We have left all the rest behind, one after another. It seems almost like a dream that has faded.’
‘Not to me,’ said Frodo. ‘To me it feels more like falling asleep again.’

We are in a different time - elvish time, which is not time as we know it, not serial time. Aragorn stands on Cerin Amroth, in two different ‘times’ - he is both in the ‘now’ time he shares with Frodo, & in the ‘past’ time he shared with Arwen. He is perceived by Frodo as he ‘is’: ‘At the hill’s foot Frodo found Aragorn, standing still & silent as a tree’, & also as ‘a young lord tall & fair; & he spoke words in the Elvish tongue to one whom Frodo could not see.’ (yet who can doubt that Arwen is just as present to Aragorn in that ‘moment’ as Frodo is?)

All these Lorien chapters explore the nature of time & our experience of it. Both Frodo & Aragorn will leave Lorien & ‘come there never again as living man (or hobbit), yet they will both remain there forever. Lorien itself will fade from the world & the tides of time will sweep it away, yet it too will remain ‘forever’ (else how could Frodo still walk there, & Aragorn come back - though not as ‘living man’?

From Lorien the outer world can be seen, the outer world may impinge on it, its inhabitants may pass beyond its borders. Yet it is eternally untouched on some deep level. At its ‘centre’, as we will see in the next chapter, is the Mirror of Galadriel, the place where space-time, past-present-future is accessible - almost, we could believe, where space & time (or at least time) originates, comes into being, & where dream & reality, where all potential possible futures have their origin. It is the womb of space, time, being, possibility, of dream & reality, fact & fiction.

It is the ‘heart of Elvendom on earth’.

One other observation for the moment: did anyone else notice the biblical ‘echo’ in Haldir’s statement regarding Southern Mirkwood?:

In the midst upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur, where long the enemy had his dwelling. We fear that now it is inhabited again, & with power [b]sevenfold]/b].

It reminded me of Jesus parable about a demon being cast out of a person:

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, & findeth none.
Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; & when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept & garnished.

Then goeth he, & taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, & they enter in & dwell there: & the last state of that man is worse than the first.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

The first thing that I noted when starting this chapter was that it is the last of the three multi-chapter "havens" in the first two books. We have three-chapter House of Bombadill, the two-chapter House of Elrond, and now the three-chapter Lothlorian. I don't recall there being much in the way of havens from here on out - maybe with Treebeard in Fangorn - certainly not for Frodo and Master Samwise.

Another thing that really stuck out to me in this chapter is the continuation of the "humanizing" of Legolas. Under Moria he displayed true fear for the first time, and here in Lorian, when confronted with the prospect of being blindfolded, he protests indignantly. I almost laughed out loud when I read that last night.

Finally, this chapter marks the final example of the contrast in Gimli's and Legolas' relationship. In this chapter they are still somewhat acrimonious ("But I will be content, if only Legolas here share my blindness") but in the next, Tolkein makes a point of mentioning the change after Celeborn and Galadrial show Gimli the same honor as the rest of the company.

I am glad to have finally caught up to everyone else. It looks like a wild ride with the good Professor.

[Lalwendë]

Re-reading this chapter again it became clear that throughout chapters 4 to 8, we see some interesting contrasts made between Elves and Dwarves. We see differences in the construction of their realms, of the cultures, and also in symbolism. This is cleverly done, as on the surface we read several chapters filled with exciting action, but also we read essential background information and gain food for thought about both races. I’ve described a few of the differences I picked up on below:

The realm of Lothlorien is constructed upwards, out of the ground by making use of the trees and building within them; the elves use flets and live up high in the treetops as the ground is not a safe place to be. In Moria, the realm is built downwards, into the very roots of the earth. While the Elves are made safer by going upwards, towards the heavens as it were, the Dwarves are endangered by delving too deeply.

At the centre of Lothlorien is the Mirror of Galadriel which is a magical scrying or visualisation tool, to which water must be added in order for it to be used. It appears to reflect time in several dimensions. Outside Moria there is the Mirrormere, Kheled-Zaram – we do not know if this possesses any powers like those of Galadriel’s mirror, but it is interesting that it too reflects something – not time, but the heavens. This is saying something to me about the importance of the concept of time to an immortal, but at this stage of the afternoon I am unable to fully get my head around that sudden thought – might come back to it later.

The waning of the power of Moria is symbolised by the tomb of Balin, while the eventual waning of Lothlorien will be marked by the final resting place of Arwen on Cerin Amroth; one tomb is of stone, the other of earth.

In both Moria and Lothlorien, perilous crossings must be made. In Moria, the crossing is over a seemingly bottomless chasm, on a narrow bridge of stone; in Lothlorien the crossing is over water, on a rope bridge. Interestingly, it is the second crossing which is presented as giving the Hobbits more fear.

Another contrast is that the Fellowship do not willingly enter Moria and are forced to make their journey through the darkness which effectively blinds them. The trip into Lothlorien is on the whole willingly taken, and when Gimli is threatened with being blindfolded, Aragorn elects for the whole company to be blinded for a time.

The Lord of Moria is now the Balrog; contrast this with Galadriel, the Lady of Lothlorien. His (is it a he?) power comes from a dark flame and shadow, whereas the power of Galadriel comes from both Nenya, and from the fact that she has been blessed with living beneath the light of the trees in Valinor.

We can also see the relationship between Elves and Dwarves reflected here. The gates of Moria have been constructed with the use of Elvish art and part of the Book of Mazarbul is written in Elvish, demonstrating that at least one of the Dwarves had taken time to learn the language, but actually seemed to prefer using it to his own - or did he intend that Elves may later find this book? In Lothlorien, Gimli is by law blindfolded, and there are clear tensions between the two races, but then we see Galadriel's acceptance of Gimli, and his admiration for her possibly prompting his friendship with Legolas. It appears that there are but remnants of any close relationship between the two races, and that it takes one as long-lived and wise as Galadriel to bridge the gap between the races.

One final thought - just like Jerry Springer - it also becomes clear how insular both Dwarves and Elves can be. Neither races like to enter the realms of each other, expressing deep distrust. And this display of insularity is further compounded with the obvious lack of both trust and knowledge of other races which Boromir displays. What Haldir says about Sauron's 'divide and rule' policy is made quite clear!

[mark12_30]

During the last Chapter, Gimli sang about Durin rising and walking alone, naming nameless hills and dells, and sang that the stars wait in Mirrormere til he wakes again from sleep.The story of a resurrection & return is told from the dwarvish perspective in the halls of Khazad-dum, not long before Gandalf's fall, battle with Durin's Bane, and death.

Durin's Bane killed Durin and Gandalf, and Gimil grieves for Gandalf as he looks on Mirrormere: ‘There lies the Mirrormere, deep Kheled-zâram!’ said Gimli sadly. ‘I remember that he said: “May you have joy of the sight! But we cannot linger there.” Now long shall I journey ere I have joy again. It is I that must hasten away, and he that must remain.’ Gandalf stays near Durin? Killed, as they suppose (and indeed, he eventually is killed) by the same Bane? Quite a link between the two. So in Gimli's tale of Durin's early history and the promise of his resurrection, in the last chapter and in this, we have a foreshadowing of Gandalf's resurrection.


One theme in the Lothlorien chapter is water, which they encounter all along their way to Lothlorien. The descriptions are gorgeous, evocative, haunting. I wanted to quote the descriptions here but it makes the post far too large... I'll leave in a few snippets.

Dimrill Stair and the torrent beside it "like a white lace over an endless ladder of short falls". Mirrormere, Khelen Zaram: "Yet its waters were dark: a deep blue like clear evening sky seen from a lamp-lit room." The well "clear as crystal"and the first Stream, "glistening and gurgling", and the second: "...plunged over a fall of green-hued stone, and foamed down into a dell. " In this dell, Aragorn tends to Frodo and Sam (interesting that they carry the only wounds from Moria.)

The third stream is Nimrodel, soothing, cold, healing, musical. Legolas sings to them "in the Westron speech, as some in Rivendell now sing it." Legolas paid attention in Rivendell!

The legend continues: "But in the spring when the wind is in the new leaves the echo of her voice may still be heard by the falls that bear her name. And when the wind is in the South the voice of Amroth comes up from the sea; for Nimrodel flows into Silverlode, that Elves call Celebrant, and Celebrant into Anduin the Great, and Anduin flows into the Bay of Belfalas whence the Elves of Lórien set sail."

That the history/legend/ myth of Amroth and Nimrodel is well-known to the Mirkwood elves is significant. This also is significant:

"‘Behold! You are come to Cerin Amroth,’ said Haldir. ‘For this is the heart of the ancient realm as it was long ago, and here is the mound of Amroth, where in happier days his high house was built."

Note that *Cerin Amroth* was the heart of the ancient realm.

Aragorn backs this:

"‘Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth,’ he said, ‘and here my heart dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we still must tread, you and I. Come with me!’ And taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man."

That Cerin Amroth is the heart of elvendom, and not Caras Galadhon, is further emphasized in that Arwen did not return to Caras Galadhon to die; she returned to Cerin Amroth.

It is at Cerin Amroth that Frodo touches the mallorn-bark, and has his mystical encounters with time and timelessnes, and with the elvish past; and even with the Sea:

"They entered the circle of white trees. As they did so the South Wind blew upon Cerin Amroth and sighed among the branches. Frodo stood still, hearing far off, great seas upon beaches that had long ago been washed away, and sea-birds crying whose race had perished from the earth."

Does he, as Legolas implied above, hear the voice of Amroth in the wind from the south?

EDIT: More ragged thoughts regarding Cerin Amroth:

Nimrodel had her house in the trees as did Amroth. In HoME, the debate continues as to which of them chose this mode of living first, Nimrodel or Amroth, but the talan is credited to one or the other (hence both). For the past thousand years, the lifestyle of the Lorien elves has had its roots (and branches) in that tradition and even Celeborn and Galadriel follow it.

Nimrodel represents the little stream and the silver waterfall. (I am rather tempted to include with that all the minor waters that the fellowship encountered on their way down from the mountains: the cascading waterfall of lace, the well with thestone lip over which a waterfall bubbled.) Amroth represents the Sea; yet though they plighted their troth, they never reached the Undying lands where they were to be wed. So Cerin Amroth (the heart of Elvendom on earth) represents trees and what they are, time and timelessness, memory, long-lost shores. But it also represents the longing of the Stream for the Sea, and the call of the Sea to the Stream.

Even the elves of Rivendell and Mirkwood sing about the sundered lovers-- and about Nimrodel's stream and waterfall. The tale of Nimrodel and Amroth (as Legolas knows it) ends in sadness and separation and unfulfilled longing. Yet more; if one reads further in HoME, Amroth waited at the havens til a storm took the ship. Nimrodel, lost in the White Mountains, slept by a stream in the white mountains that reminded her of her own. In this tale of two lovers (known and retold in three major elf-settlements) that sets the flet-lifestyle for all the elves of Lorien, and represents 'the heart of elvendom on earth'-- the stream never met the sea; that desire is unfulfilled in Middle-Earth.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

We can also see the relationship between Elves and Dwarves reflected here.

Originally Posted by Aldarion Elf-Friend

Finally, this chapter marks the final example of the contrast in Gimli's and Legolas' relationship.

Similar thoughts occurred to me while reading this Chapter.

While, as others have noted, there are a number of themes here, it seems to me that, to a large extent, this Chapter concerns Dwarves and Elves: their cultural identities and the relationship between them. We start the Chapter at the Eastern Gate of the ancient and culturally significant Dwarven realm of Moria and we end it at the heart of Elvendom on earth.

And more specifically, the Chapter largely concerns Gimli and Legolas. I have on other threads observed that these two are the least developed, in terms of the complexity of their characters, out of the Fellowship. I stand by that view. But this Chapter helps to build their cultural identity and give them a history.

In the previous Chapter, we were given an insight into Dwarven culture with the descriptions of Moria and Gimli's reaction to it. In this regard, this Chapter picks up where the previous one left off. We see that the former Dwarven realm extended beyond the caverns of Moria into the Dimrill Dale:

But still it could be seen that once long ago a great paved way had wound upwards from the lowlands of the Dwarf-kingdom. In places there were ruined works of stone beside the path, and mounds of green topped with slender birches, or fir-trees sighing in the wind.

The importance of this place within Dwarven culture is clear from Gimli's reaction to the Mirrormere. At first he resists the urge to tarry there, remembering Gandalf's words to him. But, on seeing Durin's Stone, he gives in to his need to take in the place properly:

"That is Durin's Stone!" cried Gimli. "I cannot pass without turning aside for a moment to look at the wonder of the dale!"

We learn of the significance of the Stone and the Mirrormere in Gimli's words to Frodo, and particularly when we see Gimli bowing to the Crown of Durin before turning and walking away.

Similarly, with Legolas we gain an insight into the importance of Lothlorien within Elven culture. Just as Gimli marvelled at the workings of Moria, Legolas marvels at the wonder and beauty of Lothlorien:

There lie the woods of Lothlorien" said Legolas. "That is the fairest of all the dwellings of my people. There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey. So still our songs in Mirkwood say.

And, of course, Legolas is inspired by the sound of Nimrodel to sing of the Elven maiden who gave her name to it and to relate to the Fellowship the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel. Although his home is far from this place, the song and the tale, and indeed Lothlorien itself, remain an integral part of his cultural heritage.

And, in addition to gaining an insight into their history, we learn more of Gimli and Legolas as characters. Both feature far more prominently in the dialogue than they have in previous Chapters. Gimli shares a moment with the Frodo as they stand at the Mirrormere together (and also later as they walk together). And it is Frodo who Legolas first introduces to Haldir and his companions. So both characters are closely linked with the Ringbearer, the central figure in the Quest, in this Chapter. (Notably, on both occasions Sam follows Frodo unbidden, almost automatically. Clearly, Sam is going to honour his commitment to stick with Frodo through thick and thin.)

But this Chapter does not simply concern Gimli and Legolas as individuals. It also concerns the nature of their relationship and (as Lalwendë has noted) the nature of the relationship between Dwarves and Elves generally. The tension between the races is reflected in Haldir's reaction to the presence of a Dwarf in the party and in the heated discussions which lead to the entire party being blindfolded. The stark difference between the modes of living favoured by the two races, which reflects their differing natures, has been commented on by Lalwendë, and this can also be seen in two comments made by their representatives within the Fellowship. In response to Frodo's indication that he has heard footfalls following the party, Gimili stoops low to the ground and comments that he can hear "nothing but the night-speech of plant and stone". In contrast to these earthy images, Legolas observes later in the Chapter that he is "at home among the trees".

It is the uneasy relationship between Dwarves and Elves and the differences between them that form the backdrop to the firm bond which subsequently develops between Gimli and Legolas. And there are hints here that foreshadow that friendship. The road that the Fellowship has followed leads from a (former) Elven realm (Eregion) through a (former) Dwarven realm (Moria) to another Elven realm (Lothlorien), providing a direct link between these three lands. Historically, there was friendship and co-operation between Dwarves and the Elves, and we are reminded of that here when Aragorn tends to Frodo's wounds and discovers the Mithril shirt: a mail corselet made by Dwarves for an Elven princeling.

It is also interesting that Haldir makes Legolas directly responsible for Gimli during their passage through Lothlorien. Indeed, he makes Legolas responsible for the entire Fellowship, but he specifically refers to the Elf's responsibility for the Dwarf. However grudging it may be at first, there is the beginning of a bond between the two of them here.

Some further observations:

Originally Posted by Aldarion Elf-Friend

Another thing that really stuck out to me in this chapter is the continuation of the "humanizing" of Legolas. Under Moria he displayed true fear for the first time, and here in Lorian, when confronted with the prospect of being blindfolded, he protests indignantly.

Another similar incident occurs when Legolas attempts to climb the Mallorn tree and is challenged by Haldir:

"Daro!" it said in commanding tone, and Legolas dropped back to the earth in surprise and fear. He shrank against the bole of the tree.

"Stand still!" he whispered to the others. "Do not move or speak!"

It's notable that Legolas is not only startled, but also frightened, by the challenge, notwithstanding that he must surely recognise the voice as that of an Elf. But it's a nice moment of tension, albeit one which is swiftly broken by the laughter of the Lorien Elves.

Finally, when the Fellowship stand on the edge of Lothlorien, Boromir comments that it is perilous (the perilous realm). In response, Aragorn says:

"Perilous indeed ... fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

What is interesting to me here is that is precisely what the Fellowship are doing. They are bringing an object of great evil into the perilous realm. Shouldn't they therefore fear the place?

[Bêthberry]

I fear to make a rather short and unsubstantial post after so many thoughtful and perceptive posts. I particularly like Mark12_30's point about the importance of water and the observation that only Frodo and Sam are injured in Moria (aside from Gandalf, of course).

Esty, Sam is also able to make jokes at his own expense:

"Once I do get to sleep," said Sam, "I shall go on sleeping, whether I roll off or not. And the less said, the sooner I'll drop off, if you take my meaning."

Saucepan Man wrote:
What is interesting to me here is that is precisely what the Fellowship are doing. They are bringing an object of great evil into the perilous realm. Shouldn't they therefore fear the place?

An interesting question, but one I think that can be answered by considering the nature of bringing evil. For now at least, the Fellowship is in control over that evil rather than being controlled by it. They themselves are not tarnished by the object. Thus, they themselves would have nothing to fear from the realm which opposes the Enemy who is the source of that evil. That is, the Fellowship and the Perilous Realm are in league together against that evil.

The point which struck me forcibly on rereading this chapter is the relative absence of Boromir. I think it is quite right to say the chapter focusses upon Gimli and Legolas as part of the developing them of rapproachment between their races. However, I am getting very much the sense that Tolkien has marked Boromir from the start, so to speak, for failure; he is in fact a foil who helps us see better Aragorn's honour. Boromir is rather a vain , perhaps even petulant and limited man.

As others of you have discussed very ably previously, in the Council of Elrond, Boromir appears proud, even conceited. I have the sense that, even though he is noble and bold, his attitude is presumptuous and hollow even. He lacks self-knowledge. He has had his role as heir to the Stewardship of Gondor given to him; he has not had to struggle to learn about that role, as Aragorn has had to struggle to learn how to perfect himself for Kingship.

In Moria, while Boromir fights valiantly, none of his actions provide substantial defense. He jimmies shut doors which ultimately are forced open. He is thrust down by an orc. It is Aragorn, with Andúril, who splits an orc's head, not Boromir. His horn only temporarily puts fear into the hearts of the orcs. Now, in Lothlorien, Boromir's only role is to be, well, perhaps querulous is unfair. Maybe call it obstreperous. He seems to be placed in the position of always arguing the limited point of view where Aragorn is given the broader perspective. His knowledge is shown to be limited.

It is possible I am reading too much into the contrast between Aragorn and Boromir, but I cannot help but think that Tolkien cleverly has each man act out very different qualities in the heroic ideal, even from the beginning. One is the hollow pretender who lacks substance while the other is tested and being found true. It is a very subtle depiction which contrasts the male boaster with the man of true worth. Vainglory versus true glory.

[Boromir88]

Davem wrote:

But can we imagine him in a settled, loving relationship, with children, ruling as Steward in a time of peace? No - well, I can't.

I'm going to have to admit, neither could I. In one of Tolkien's earlier drafts, Boromir lives, and heads to Minas Tirith, with Aragorn. Aragorn takes claim to the throne, Boromir wants to reject this claim and starts stirring up trouble, a possible civil war. Then Aragorn quickly kills Boromir, before he can rally enough support. I can get more in depth and make a connection between Aragorn's claim and Arvedui's claim, but I will do that when the time is right, for I fear this will take us too off track. Anyway, now Tolkien threw out that idea, I just wanted to mention it, since it could display something about Boromir.

Bethberry I definately agree that Tolkien did make Boromir as a FOIL to Aragorn.

(*Fordim rubs hands gleefully in anticipation of the next chapter*).

Aren't we all doing that Fordhim? Lol. I'm dying to talk about Nenya and the Mirror of Galadriel, plus a little more on Boromir.

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I think the difference between these two realms centres upon the fact that Rivendell is a place of lore: the past is in the past, it's over and Elrond has accepted that, however ruefully. As a result, Rivendell is wonderful but not nearly so miraculous (or even magical) as Lorien: nor as dangerous. In Lorien, as davem reminds us, the time/land of faerie is still the lived reality of the realm; the past is not past, but is now. In effect, Rivendell/Elrond have made the decision to forsake Middle-earth: they've accepted the fact of their long defeat. Galadriel/Lorien have not yet made that decision -- this land knows that an end is coming, but seems not quite ready to accept that yet.

Interesting comparison of Rivendell and Lorien, Fordim. Both are elf-realms and safehavens in a time of war, maintained by the quiet power of the Elven-rings. Yet, Rivendell is the kind of place which the average person would feel safe (although possibly a bit intimidated by the wisdom of its inhabitants -- unless, of course, that person was Boromir ); it is a place which people would seek for safety and knowledge. Rivendell, despite all it has to offer, is more mundane than Lorien, more connected to the "here and now." Elrond's strength is said to be not in weapons but in lore. He recognizes the past as just that, and considers it something to be learned from and not lived in.

Lorien, on the other hand, does not seem to have changed much from at least Nimrodel's time. Unlike Rivendell, it is a place that few, save Elves and those with prior knowledge of it, such as Aragorn, would choose to go. The House of Elrond is held in esteem among different peoples, but Lorien seems to have a bad rap because of its mysterious qualities. Legolas' words after singing a portion of the Lay of Nimrodel shows that the Elves have begun to fade already:

"I cannot sing any more," he said. "That is but a part, for I have forgotten much."

The Elves are beginning to, in a sense, lose themselves to the unavoidable (however hard they try to evade it) passing of time. Fordim notes that it is understood the end of Lorien is approaching, but the Elves there, and especially Galadriel, do not seem to have accepted it. Haldir, however, speaks of a foreboding he has:

"Some there are among us who sing that the Shadow will draw back, and peace shall come again. Yet I do not believe that the world around us will ever again be as it was of old, or the light of the Sun as it was aforetime. For the Elves, I fear, it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to the Sea unhindered and leave the Middle-earth forever."

One could call him pessimistic, but the fact that some of his kind are displaying what seems to be a naive sort of hope, brought on by their prolonged detachment from the rest of the world, makes him seem quite the realist. He also seems to understand the necessity of standing together against the threat of Mordor. Since the beginning of the chapter, he has gotten over his initial prejudice against Gimli, and removes his blindfold first of anyone's.

I especially like this:

Never before had he been so suddenly and so keenly aware of the feel and texture of a tree's skin and of the life within it. He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.

A huzzah for the tree-hugging Professor!

[Bêthberry]

Oh, indeed Encaitare! Isn't that part wonderful, particularly the part about "he felt a delight in the wood, and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself." There's something of Bombadil there, isn't there?

At risk of belabouring a point, I would like to address some points of Sauce's.

And, to buck against the trend of pointing out the perceived shortcomings of the films in these discussions ( ), I would make the point that engendering reader/audience sympathy for Boromir is something that the films perhaps handled better than Tolkien himself.

Two things about this come to mind. First, I agree that the movie made Boromir's death more poignant than the book, particularly in the way it was used to conclude the first movie, rather than, as in the novel, open the second book. Yet I am not so sure we need to make an evaluative or comparative judgement here, at least not quickly. Given Jackson's adherance to action movie techniques, the Star Wars allusion, the entire forefronting of battles with spectacular effects, it does not surprise me that Jackson would give a higher priority to Boromir than Tolkien does. It is consistent within the context of Jackon's entire interpretation of Tolkien for a movie-going public. We see, for example, how Jackson has Aragorn say, "Let's go hunt some orcs"--now there is a statement rather out of sympathy with several aspects of Book-Aragorn. In short, I don't think Jackson's movie shows great familiarity with Tolkien's concept of Heroic Northern Ideal.

Second, is it safe to assume that Tolkein wanted, at this point in the book, to engender sympathy for Boromir in the reader? This strikes me as being one of your prime criteria Sauce--and a thoroughly respectable criteron it is--for determining quality in writing (sympathy for or with a character), but I am not sure it is a criterion which is justified in the book at this point. Of course as you say, later we may understand Boromir much better after 'meeting' Denethor and Faramir, but for this discussion I thought we were limiting ourselves to 'the plot so far'.

It was this 'plot so far' which led me to wonder what Tolkien was doing with the Boromir character in this section. I noted first the relative absence of much reference to Boromir in this chapter. The main mention of him concerns his deep mistrust of Lothlorien and we are thus able to see, with Aragorn's (aka Tolkien the writer's ) prompting how this suggests Boromir and Gondor have not kept faith with the ancient lore--something the elves have done. Then I went back and looked at the previous chapter, to see how successful Boromir's actions as a warrior were. Sam kills his first orc and Aragorn kills an orc, but Boromir is thrown down and back despite his courage. I then went back to our first meeting with Boromir at the Council with Elrond. (Yes, I am skipping, I realise.) I won't repeat here our discussions of that chapter save to say that, for me, I saw and still see a very arrogant, self-centered diplomat. He even at one point almost suggests that he would like to have Anduril back for Gondor's sake.

Then I began to wonder why Tolkien was presenting Boromir like this to us at this point. My post read:

The point which struck me forcibly on rereading this chapter is the relative absence of Boromir. ... However, I am getting very much the sense that Tolkien has marked Boromir from the start, so to speak, for failure; he is in fact a foil who helps us see better Aragorn's honour.

I realise that I might be treading on well-loved favourite characters here, but what I have been trying to suggest is a way of reading the book which is a little bit different from finding one's sympathy for a particular character. This is of course the starting point for all good writing: it must catch us somehow and most often that will be through our sympathy for or identification with or admiration of certain characters. Yet, yet, sometimes writers chose a different tactic. Sometimes they might want to 'hook the reader' by a reverse tactic. Or sometimes they might want to make a character initially appear questionable. Or sometimes they might want to use the character, as I suggest here, as a foil for another character.

What our different perspectives on Boromir boil down to, I think Sauce, is something that has *cough* *ahem* came out in our discussions on other threads, which shall here be nameless. Your admiration rests on your desire to read for the point of 'click' between you as a reader and a character. And this admiration has developed over extended readings and great familiarity with latter parts of the novel. Please note I am not saying this is wrong. Our own enjoyment is a prime motivator in any reading, and particularly here on the Downs we love to share those parts which click for us (as I have done at the start of my post here).

My less-than-stellar-admiration derives in part from my (female) lack of sympathy for a male whose first appearance shows him to be not a concensus-maker. His argument is based on the needs of Gondor and he is not diplomatically able to make his pitch, so to speak, to the interests of other members. Here is my "empathy issue". Even though Boromir is noble, courageous, valiant, this egotism stands in my way of finding him appealing. Then, on top of this, I ask not how I feel about the character, but what are the ways that Tolkien uses to depict the character.

To my mind, it is a greater test of mercy to keen for Boromir's loss if we first had little sympathy for him than if we really admired him. It is--at least to my mind and of course others will have very different responses--a more poignant experience of the Ring's power.

Well now, I return you all to the more fascinating discussion of the nature of Lothlorien and Rivendell. Lothlorien is under seige and here the last vestiges of elvendom are held together by the power of one woman. What is Boromir to learn from Galadriel's test? Oh,sorry, jumping ahead. *slaps hand*

[mark12_30]

Never before had he been so suddenly and so keenly aware of the feel and texture of a tree's skin and of the life within it. He felt a delight in wood and the touch of it, neither as forester nor as carpenter; it was the delight of the living tree itself.

And Encaitare adds : "A huzzah for the tree-hugging Professor! "

OK. Now be honest: how many of you have started touching tree-bark?

*raises hand*

If you have too, go post in the Middle Earth Essence thread.

[Boromir88]

Mark, I can't remember the name of the tree, but while I was in Nevada the tree-bark smelled like Vanilla. It was a refreshing smell, I actually broke off some tree bark and have it in my car for an air freshener, ack, I wish I could remember the name of the tree.