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07-26-2004, 03:33 AM | #1 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles)
Posts: 7,500
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LotR -- Book 1 - Chapter 06 – The Old Forest
This chapter begins with darkness; though the hobbits are still in Crickhollow, their brief refuge, they are on the verge of leaving. The ominous Old Forest lies ahead of them, and Fatty Bolger’s words
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The darkness of the forest pervades the chapter, with only Merry’s cheerfulness and a bit of light in the clearings brightening it up. The hobbits have only just left the Shire and already encounter danger not from the Ring or the Riders, but from a hostile environment that has nothing to do with Sauron’s influence, at least not directly so. I find it interesting that the trees can apparently understand human language, since they react to the words of the hobbits, especially those about the woods failing. In this situation, where the hobbits have no choice but to take the path chosen for them by the trees, Sam’s bit of heroism saves the day, tiding them over until Tom Bombadil is introduced as their rescuer. (Insert nonsensical poetry here ) At the end of the chapter, an open door and light await them, with Goldberry’s welcoming song. I find the last sentence wonderfully evocative: Quote:
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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07-26-2004, 06:45 AM | #2 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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One observation here: the Old Forest trees enmity illustrates a depth brought to Middle-earth which PJ's movies missed, that there are autonomous forces for good and ill operating. Earlier, Gildor says:
"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth." And later Aragorn and Gimli about Caradhras. Aragorn: "There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he." "Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name," said Gimli, "long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands." Middle-earth can be doubly treacherous, then. It is more then a matter of watching out for Sauron's agents. There are unsuspected and unplanned for agents for good and ill, perhaps operating independent of others, which is in a way more realistic and gives a feeling of depth to the world. And, of course, it gives Tolkien the first of his chances to have trees react to two-legged "aggression". |
07-26-2004, 07:21 AM | #3 | |||||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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(Yes, this is a long post - anyone who feels daunted, please skip it, & just pretend it never happened!)
Well, after two, on the surface, slow, uneventful chapters, things start moving! We enter the Old Forest (I can hear the screams from some readers now - ‘Tom Bombadil- ARRGH!!!!!’) We are now entering strange territory - the Old Forest & Old Tom. Where to begin? Verlyn Flieger’s essay ‘Taking the Part of Trees’ (in JRR Tolkien & his Literary Resonances offers some insight into the nature of the Old Forest: Quote:
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Yet, what struck me more forcefully re-reading this chapter, was the way its not simply OMW, or even the trees themselves, which are the threat - the whole forest, even the earth itself, seems to actively conspire. The land seems to change shape in order to direct the hobbits to the centre of the wood, seeming to become boggy, or solid, opening into gullies, raising itself up, lowering itself down as necessary. Even the air itself seems maliciously to ‘drug’ them, while the trees try to sing them to sleep so that OMW can consume them. And Tolkien communicates this dreamlikeness in some of the most beautiful prose in literature: Quote:
But then the weirdest thing of all happens - Jolly Tom appears! Actually, the way he’s described, he seems to rise out of the earth: Quote:
Brian Rosebury, in Tolkien: A Cultural Phenomenon, describes Tom thus: Quote:
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*One possibility which Flieger doesn’t explore is Tolkien’s ‘conceit’ - that LotR is a translation of the Red book of Westmarch - it was written by hobbits from their perspective. Tolkien himself may ‘take the part of trees as against all their enemies’ (letter 319) but that doesn’t mean that the hobbits do - a ‘well ordered & well farmed countryside’, which they love, requires the clearing of natural woodland - the two - as Flieger points out, cannot co-exist - one must be sacrificed in favour of the other. Treebeard may mourn: Quote:
Frodo’s song, ending with the line ‘For east or west all woods must fail’ wouldn’t be the kind of thing Treebeard would approve of - & nor, we can assert, would Tolkien.Merry's suggestion of tuning & giving the trees a rousing chorus of the song when they get out of the forest, in the light of the hobbits rampant destruction of the trees, is simply adding insult to injury. Perhaps Tolkien is making a subtle & easily missed point when he has Merry & Pippin enter Fangorn & meet Treebeard. Merry has a lesson to learn if he is to become Master of Buckland in the future, & have responsibility for the Old Forest.
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 07-26-2004 at 07:27 AM. |
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07-26-2004, 09:39 AM | #4 | ||
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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This is the first real adventure chapter in the book; so far we have had the Black Riders appear threateningly from time to time, but that threat has not yet been realized. It is something of a twist, then, to more or less forget the Black Riders for a chapter (indeed, for three chapters) and to suddenly put the Hobbits into an unrelated bit of trouble. In fact there is something rather odd about it, I think. Few authors would so carefully build up the threat of the Nazgul, and go to great lengths to illustrate the nature of the Ring and get its story started, only to drop these threads almost completely after just five chapters and present us with a three-chapter interlude concerning other things. One could (as Ralph Bakshi and Peter Jackson know very well) simply cut these three chapters out without creating many problems for the later narrative.
Why does Tolkien do this? I think the real answer is simply that, at the time he wrote these chapters, he didn't know any better. That is to say, he had not yet worked out the whole plot and in fact had not yet realized that LotR was going to be much different from The Hobbit. The Old Forest was conceived of as just an adventure that Frodo has along the way, for originally it was simply to be a story about Frodo's adventures. But of course later, when Tolkien did understand what LotR was going to be, he retained these chapters. I would guess that this was partly just habit - once the narrative got going, he never made any huge changes to parts he'd already written. A more commercially-minded author would probably have deleted the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil, and the Barrow-downs since they don't directly concern the main plot of the book. But I think that there is value in these chapters as they are, as Tolkien must have realized. First of all, they are simply interesting in themselves. But that's not quite a sufficient explanation, for one can imagine any number of miscellaneous adventures that are interesting in themselves and yet were not and should not have been added to the text. I think one virtue of these chapters is that identified by Tuor of Gondolin: Quote:
Another thing this interlude does is to extend the threat of the Nazgul by delaying its resolution. Chapters 3, 4, and 5 have set up the Black Riders as a threat and we know that it will only be a matter of time before they begin to do more than simply sniff and scream. The reader anticipates some kind of confrontation with the Black Riders. That anticipation is firmly in place by the end of chapter 5. So through chapters 6, 7, and 8, on top of everything else, the reader is thinking about the Black Riders and still anticipating an eventual confrontation. To illustrate this point, imagine how much poorer Book I would be if these three chapters were placed after the Weathertop encounter. And a final justification for not excising these chapters: while they are almost unrelated to the central plot, they are not completely so. There is the obvious relation, for example, between the Old Forest and Fangorn. As for chapter 6 itself, what struck me on rereading it was the way Tolkien slowly builds up the tension right to the climax of the chapter. This is one of his chief strengths, I think; it's already been noted in relation to the Black Riders in chapters 3, 4, and 5. Here, we begin with the Old Forest being more or less just a forest, if one which, according to Merry, has queer things living in it. Then we find that the trees bar their way and make Pippin uneasy. Then Frodo's song seems to disturb them. Then briefly the tension is eased when they stand at the top of the hill and look out across the forest. Then they go on, making good progress at first, but slowly finding that the forest is forcing them in its desired direction. Then they become completely lost and unable to choose their own direction at all. Finally they arrive in the Withywindle valley itself and struggle with a strange drowsiness. Then suddenly Old Man Willow strikes, and in a brief space we have some minor heroics by Sam and the appearance of Tom Bombadil. Looking at it this way, what Tolkien does is present a series of minor incidents each of which alters the tension in some way. Most add to it, a little bit at a time. One detracts from it - which only makes its eventual reappearance more striking. And only at the very climax does anything actually happen. A mistake too many authors make is to think that the reader is conscious only of what is happening at the moment, so that they think a constant level of action must be maintained for the story to be interesting. Tolkien realizes that readers have a memory and also a sense of anticipation, so that each of the little incidents he presents adds to the tension. Davem wrote: Quote:
Last edited by Aiwendil; 07-29-2004 at 03:15 PM. |
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07-26-2004, 01:30 PM | #5 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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Firstly, I can't comprehend what the book would be like without chapters 6 to 8, they add in, for want of a better word, a lot of 'magic' to the tale. And what's great about this 'magic' is that it is not of the hocus-pocus, casting spells type, but of the ancient, earth-based variety. There are sections later in the book which could also have easily been left out, e.g. the Woses, but they add to the sense of ancient history in Middle Earth.
Old Man Willow is a frightening figure, made all the more real when you think about the properties and uses of willow. It is a tree that can be chopped up and turned into a fence, which will mysteriously take root and sprout leaves. It is the tree which was (allegedly) used to construct the Wicker Man. And, in some British towns where they celebrate May Day with dancers dressed as 'Jack in the green', they use willow to make the framework for the costume. Jack in the green is who I think of when I read about Tom Bombadil. It's probably been said a thousand times before, but to me he is The Green Man, the woodland spirit. He is the master of the woodlands and Old Man Willow, but I'm getting dangerously close to straying into the next chapter here. Getting back to the chapter, I love the sense of how being lost in a woodland feels. When the path disappears, Mery is convinced that the trees are conspiring to hide it, and this is how it does feel when you get lost while out walking. The hobbits sense movements and sounds as though the trees are moving, which is another eerie sensation that can grip you. As for fitting into the narrative, this chapter and the following two are technically well placed as they provide a transition from the world the hobbits (and readers) have got to know and feel comfortable in, to the wider world, untamed and altogether more dangerous. |
07-26-2004, 02:29 PM | #6 |
Guest
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I agree that in this chapter we see the first contact with the unknown for the hobbits and I think it's nicely symbolised by the passage through the gate and the finality of its closing: with this act they leave behind all that is familiar and comforting to walk into and towards danger - the mists that envelope them are a clear (no pun intended ! ) signal for this.
What I'm not really sure of is the evil intent of the Old Forest - apart from Old Man Willow we never actually see the trees moving or actively doing something: I wonder whether this is just the product of the hobbits' imagination, aided by Merry's quite scary tale and combined with the strange environment they find themselves into. It might seem that the hobbits, taking with them their fears and doubts (and maybe some guilty feelings about the actions taken by their compatriots against the forest) give substance to the impression that nature is conspiring against them. After all, when Old Man Willows exerts his "charms" the only one keeping his wits about him is Sam - the most levelheaded (and less imaginative ?) of the four. |
10-14-2004, 12:05 PM | #7 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Playing in Peoria
Posts: 35
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Tom Bombadil and the Bucklanders
Hi, this is my first post to the Downs, and I have been thoroughly enjoying this chapter by chapter discussion. I am rereading the series (second time this century, third time in my life) in conjunction with the the Chapter-by-Chapter discussions on this forum, and it is expanding my appreciation and enjoyment of the book immensely.
As I was reading the chapters on Tom and the Old Forest, a question occurred to me: given that Tom was on friendly terms with Farmer Maggot and had regular dealings with the folk of Bree, how is it that the Bucklanders, Merry in particular, knew nothing of this incredibly powerful, charismatic and enigmatic individual living less than a day's journey from their home? These are the sorts of things that I wonder Resuming lurk mode... Aldarion Elf-Friend |
10-14-2004, 12:18 PM | #8 |
Gibbering Gibbet
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Beyond cloud nine
Posts: 1,844
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Welcome to the Downs Aldarion, and to the Chapter by Chapter discussion. Don't lurk! Come on in and participate. When do you expect you might be able to post on the most current chapter (currently we're talking about "The Bridge of Khazad-dum in Book Two).
It's an interesting question that you pose. I guess that the general ignorance of the hobbits toward Tom is another indication of their parochial and inward looking nature. What's intriguing about this in light of our discussion of Tom as a nature-spirit, is that the hobbits are all of them deeply in love with "tilled earth" -- they even live in the ground, and are thus very close to the earth and the natural. But they are unaware of Tom: maybe they are close to the earth in terms of cultivation and domestication. They know about "tilled earth" but are blind to the wild or untamed forces of nature represented by Tom? But then, of course FARMER Maggot knows Tom -- is this why Maggot is such an imposing figure? He is a farmer and a friend of Tom, thus in touch with domesticated nature and wild nature? He has a full view of the natural world. The more I hear and think about Maggot, the more fascinating a figure he becomes. . .
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10-14-2004, 01:37 PM | #9 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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Hi there Alda and welcome to the discussion side of the Downs. A bit different than chat, eh?
You pose a good question. For myself, I have always assumed that the "Hedge" and the bad blood caused years ago by the fire in the Bonfire Glade was the reason for the hobbits having very little to do with the Old Forest. This might account for their ignorance of Tom. It makes you wonder what he knows of the events of the Bonfire Glade, though, when the hobbits burned down trees and found over territory. (*hears the possibility of an RPG*) It is about the only bit of hobbit history we get which has the possibility of casting them in a less than friendly light. Maggots feed on dead flesh--a very unsentimental name for the farmer. I think I would agree with Fordim that Farmer Maggot is one of those minor characters who really rewards closer examination. Please do join in--posing that is, rather than lurking--on the rest of the Chapter by Chapter discussion threads.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
10-14-2004, 02:34 PM | #10 | |||
Stormdancer of Doom
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I'm only up to post 13 in this thread, but before I forget-- there have been many comparisons between Treebeard and Old Man Willow; but to me, Old Man Willow seems much less like an Ent to me, and much more like a Huorn. His "Devouring" of Merry and Pippin is analogous to the Huorns devouring orcs. The Huorns move, but underground, sort of swimming through it; they don't "walk" like Ents do.
Interesting that Merry and Pippin, the Devoured ones, were the ones to go on to Fangorn. (In contrast to Ted Sandyman, I do believe Sam's friend/cousin/whatever *did* see an Ent, 'walking'....) OK, back to reading.... Davem wrote: Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. Last edited by mark12_30; 10-14-2004 at 02:48 PM. |
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10-14-2004, 03:27 PM | #11 | ||
Stormdancer of Doom
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From my jottings and scribblings:
Early in the chapter, Frodo sings at the trees, but his will fails; His voice starts out strong, then fades, not because he is finished, but because the trees loom over him. This is a contrast to his Bombadil-summoning in the Barrow; there, his voice starts out weak, and ends up ringing out. 'Something' has changed by then. Quote:
The contrast between Sam and Frodo is interesting; Frodo, dreamy and almost 'drownded', must be pulled out of the Withywindle and the Willow-Roots by Sam (later, Frodo pulls Sam out of the Anduin.) Then as they consider Merry & Piipin's plight, Frodo is cautious and hesitant; Sam is 'fierce'. It is Sam who sets the fire, and threatens to gnaw on the tree. While Sam is stamping out the fire, Frodo is running crying 'help, help' and feeling 'desperate: lost and witless'. This is a major contrast to his later temptation and courage in the Barrow. Goldberry's voice falls silver-- like Nimrodel-- "Her voice as falling silver fell into the shining pool." To me, this is one of the most moving parts of this chapter: Quote:
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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09-27-2016, 02:33 PM | #12 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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First off, this has always been one of my least favourite chapters and still is. The chapter feels horribly long and dragging - even though Tolkien's descriptions of the Old Forest are beautiful and atmospheric, I always feel like I was under Old Man Willow's spell too and would rather fall into slumber than finish the chapter. That being said, the chapter is quite interesting when something finally starts to happen.
Come to think of it, this is the first time the hobbits actually have to face a danger - when hiding and avoiding is not an option anymore. And novice heroes as they are, they don't do very well, do they? Fortunately we're still close to home and there's kind fatherly Tom Bombadil to rescue them. My two other notion about this chapter concerns Frodo in particular. I never really noticed it before, but he's rather prone to panicking. His first reaction is always flee not fight (with the Black Riders, here, with the Barrow-Wight, much later with Shelob...) and while I'm not judging that, here he really lets himself go and literally runs away screaming. (Well, he will find his courage on the Barrow-Downs. Looking forward to that chapter. Unlike this one, it's always been one of my favourites.) PS. Legate, interesting catches about the key and Merry's role!
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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