Nazgul-Were they still Men? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

bilbo_baggins · 03-26-2004, 08:32 AM

I noticed something in the Books:

If the Nazgul were once Men, and Saruman could control Men, could Saruman sweet-talk the Nazgul into submission? Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to?

I hope this hasn't been covered already...

***Sharkû*** · 03-26-2004, 09:38 AM

Arguably, the sway Sauron had had on the Nazgûl since their 'enslavery' was too heavy to overcome for Saruman. However, that didn't prevent him from trying, and succeeding at least in improving his own standing:

"I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dûr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That, says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country." To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so."
This skilful speech convinced even the Witch-king for the moment that Saruman was a faithful ally, high in Sauron's confidence. At once the Riders left the Gate and rode in haste to the Fords of Isen." (UT, 3,IV,ii)

burrahobbit · 03-26-2004, 11:20 AM

Yeah that. And as to

Quote:

Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to?

Pretty much the only thing that all men are subject to is dying and then leaving the world, which I can't see not applying to the Nazgul (unless they didn't want to, like Beren, only evil).

Orcrist · 03-26-2004, 08:15 PM

I think that the Nazgul are not men anymore (They were once) For one thing, they don't die. Any mortal would probably have drowned when the the River Bruinen hit him. I think that Aragorn says "They were ONCE men."(Don't quote me on that

) He does in the movie anyway. The once means that they were men before Sauron made them his slaves.

symestreem · 03-26-2004, 08:27 PM

Quote:

They were once men, great kings of men. Then Sauron the Deceiver gave to them Nine Rings of Power. Blinded by their greed, they took them without question, one by one falling into darkness. They are the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths.

-Aragorn, in the Fellowship of the Ring Movie
Better stop before I quote the whole movie

... But it was a movie quote. Is there anything similar in the books?

Vilyon · 03-26-2004, 11:34 PM

The Nazgul are wraiths, no longer human and "neither living nor dying" and therefore are not subject to anything mortal

03-26-2004, 08:32 AM	#1
bilbo_baggins Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In my front hallway, grabbing my staff, about to head out my door Posts: 275	Nazgul-Were they still Men? I noticed something in the Books: If the Nazgul were once Men, and Saruman could control Men, could Saruman sweet-talk the Nazgul into submission? Or could the Nazgul be subject to other things Men are subject to? I hope this hasn't been covered already... __________________ "For with much wisdom comes much sorrow, and with more knowledge comes more grief."

03-26-2004, 09:38 AM	#2
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Arguably, the sway Sauron had had on the Nazgûl since their 'enslavery' was too heavy to overcome for Saruman. However, that didn't prevent him from trying, and succeeding at least in improving his own standing: "I will report this myself to the Lord of Barad-dûr," he said loftily, "to whom I speak from afar on great matters that concern us. But all that you need to know on the mission that he has given you is where 'the Shire' lies. That, says Mithrandir, is northwest from here some six hundred miles, on the borders of the seaward Elvish country." To his pleasure Saruman saw that even the Witch-king did not relish that. You must cross Isen by the Fords, and then rounding the Mountains' end make for Tharbad upon Greyflood. Go with speed, and I will report to your Master that you have done so." This skilful speech convinced even the Witch-king for the moment that Saruman was a faithful ally, high in Sauron's confidence. At once the Riders left the Gate and rode in haste to the Fords of Isen." (UT, 3,IV,ii)

03-26-2004, 08:15 PM	#4
Orcrist Wight Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: The Mines of Moria Posts: 239	I think that the Nazgul are not men anymore (They were once) For one thing, they don't die. Any mortal would probably have drowned when the the River Bruinen hit him. I think that Aragorn says "They were ONCE men."(Don't quote me on that ) He does in the movie anyway. The once means that they were men before Sauron made them his slaves. __________________ "A wedding! I love weddings! Drinks all around!" Jack Sparrow

03-26-2004, 11:34 PM	#6
Vilyon Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Ummmm.....42 Posts: 11	The Nazgul are wraiths, no longer human and "neither living nor dying" and therefore are not subject to anything mortal