Have ye then no hope? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Evisse the Blue · 06-11-2004, 06:19 AM

I am of the opinion that Tolkien is more than a fantasy writer - that is, he can do so much more than create languages, histories and places and populate them with fantastic creatures. At times he uses his characters to tell us a bit about the mysteries of human nature. However, this thread is not to discuss psychological depth in Tolkien's works ( there is a thread in the Books forum that has attempted that) so bear with me.

I am interested if you can tell me, from your own experience, whether you ever experienced the feeling labeled by Tolkien as "Estel'. If so, in what situation? And what were the consequences?

Let's clarify the terminology first (in Tolkien's words) :

Looking up: An expectation of good, which though uncertain, has some foundation in what is known.

Trust (estel): It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being.

For those of you who saw the movie Signs (directed by M Night Shamalayan), there is a similar distinction made in a conversation between Mel Gibson's character and his brother, in a situation of crisis and uncertainty: there are some people who see signs, and for them coincidences have a meaning; and others, for whom there is a fifty-fifty chance that things will go right, or wrong.

I'd like to hear your opinions, even if you do not have a situation to share, and even if you never felt something like this. All speculations are welcome. If you can think of a better definition for 'Estel', feel free to challenge mine.

Thank you.

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 06-11-2004, 07:12 AM

This looks like a good subject *if* we keep our answers related to the theme of this site - Tolkien and Middle-earth. This topic, as written, invites you to share your opinions and personal experiences, but it is important that we do not drift off into varied philosophical discussions of hope, trust, etc. As with everything we do on the Downs, please keep your answers within our long-established boundaries.

Thanks,

mark12_30 · 06-17-2004, 07:15 AM

Evisse the Blue ,

Challenging question! And it took me a bit of time to think how I might respond. I decided to look at the the challenges facing Aragorn and Arwen, and look at their "hopeful" responses to those challenges.

For instance, a simple example is that while Aragorn was off on the Ring Quest and Arwen was waiting at home, watching over him, she made for him a banner. That has met some derision on this board, but let's think about it for a minute. While her fiancee was a scruffy wanderer in the wilderness with nothing but a lineage, a sword, and lots & lots of enemies, she made him a (large) banner with the insignia of Gondor on it. She was standing in the hope that he would:

a. Survive (against terrifying odds)
b. Win ( against terrifying odds)
c. Be accepted as king (on the basis of his sword and his genes...)

Looking at it like that, the banner seems presumptious. Wouldn't a careful person have waited? See how the chips fall? She didn't. She made the doggone banner-- out of Mithril, no less.

That's hope. Hope that he won't just die; hope that he'll win the war; hope that the Ringbearer will get through behind all enemy lines, and that when he does, somehow it will all work out (her father , I think, knew how hard it would be to destroy the ring, just as Gandalf did, so I imagine Arwen knew too.)

"Either all hope cometh, or our hope's end."

Now... have I ever been through anything quite like that? Well, uh, not exactly... but it's sure food for thought.

Evisse the Blue · 07-01-2004, 09:30 AM

Quote:

"Either all hope cometh, or our hope's end."

Yes, it's sort of a fifty-fifty chance, isn't it?

That was a very good example, mark12_30, thank you!
Now take for instance Sam: he's an optimist by nature, sometimes really naive in his optimism: I mean, he really has a childish expectance that all will turn out alright, even in the depths of Mordor. But to my mind, his optimism is very different from the 'Elvish' way of 'trusting' (i.e. Arwen's hope). So what sets Estel apart from other sorts of unfounded hope? And is Estel ever proven wrong?

Oh- about that 'personal experience' bit: I realize how this may turn into an off-topic chat, probably making most of you wisely stay away from this thread.

So if anyone has any opinions about this that they'd like to share, but which are not strictly Tolkien-related please PM me, because I'm really interested in this. Thanks!

davem · 07-02-2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evisse

And is Estel ever proven wrong?

I don't think it can be, as it's not based on evidence - that would be amdir. Estel, as I understand it, is something like religious faith - Tolkien translates it as 'trust'. I'd think estel could only be proved wrong if the victory of evil was to be complete in the end - which it couldn't really be, as evil is not (imo) an equal & opposite force in Middle Earth, but a perversion/corruption of good. Eru remains dominant & in theory must win out in the end.

Could Eru be corrupted? If so, then estel would prove false. But what would corrupt Eru into betraying His own nature? I think estel, based as it is ultimately on faith & trust in Eru cannot be proven wrong as long as Eru remains Eru - & He has no real reason not to!

HerenIstarion · 07-02-2004, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Eru remains dominant & in theory must win out in the end

It seems there is a bit of more sadness for the elves (as Tolkien is picturing the World before Christ). Their Estel is more groundless - they may be sure (in fact, they are sure) that Eru will win in the end, but they are not sure what will happen to themselves. They simply do not know what is beyond the world, in which they are destined to live as long it lasts, but beyond that? The Estel of the elves resides in hope (without evidence), that when Eru wins, he does not eliminate them - i.e. that they are not created to merely die out in the end. But they have no knowedge

I believe, to give their Estel a little bit of ground, not to confirm them as being beyond salvation (as they are picutred as good pagans) the whole of Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth was written.

As opposed to, say, men of the 7th age, which have Gospels - literally translated as "Good Tidings".

06-11-2004, 06:19 AM	#1
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Have ye then no hope? I am of the opinion that Tolkien is more than a fantasy writer - that is, he can do so much more than create languages, histories and places and populate them with fantastic creatures. At times he uses his characters to tell us a bit about the mysteries of human nature. However, this thread is not to discuss psychological depth in Tolkien's works ( there is a thread in the Books forum that has attempted that) so bear with me. I am interested if you can tell me, from your own experience, whether you ever experienced the feeling labeled by Tolkien as "Estel'. If so, in what situation? And what were the consequences? Let's clarify the terminology first (in Tolkien's words) : Looking up: An expectation of good, which though uncertain, has some foundation in what is known. Trust (estel): It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. For those of you who saw the movie Signs (directed by M Night Shamalayan), there is a similar distinction made in a conversation between Mel Gibson's character and his brother, in a situation of crisis and uncertainty: there are some people who see signs, and for them coincidences have a meaning; and others, for whom there is a fifty-fifty chance that things will go right, or wrong. I'd like to hear your opinions, even if you do not have a situation to share, and even if you never felt something like this. All speculations are welcome. If you can think of a better definition for 'Estel', feel free to challenge mine. Thank you. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass. Last edited by Evisse the Blue; 06-11-2004 at 06:20 AM. Reason: ate up a word

06-11-2004, 07:12 AM	#2
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	A reminder... This looks like a good subject if we keep our answers related to the theme of this site - Tolkien and Middle-earth. This topic, as written, invites you to share your opinions and personal experiences, but it is important that we do not drift off into varied philosophical discussions of hope, trust, etc. As with everything we do on the Downs, please keep your answers within our long-established boundaries. Thanks, __________________ The Barrow-Wight

06-17-2004, 07:15 AM	#3
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Evisse the Blue , Challenging question! And it took me a bit of time to think how I might respond. I decided to look at the the challenges facing Aragorn and Arwen, and look at their "hopeful" responses to those challenges. For instance, a simple example is that while Aragorn was off on the Ring Quest and Arwen was waiting at home, watching over him, she made for him a banner. That has met some derision on this board, but let's think about it for a minute. While her fiancee was a scruffy wanderer in the wilderness with nothing but a lineage, a sword, and lots & lots of enemies, she made him a (large) banner with the insignia of Gondor on it. She was standing in the hope that he would: a. Survive (against terrifying odds) b. Win ( against terrifying odds) c. Be accepted as king (on the basis of his sword and his genes...) Looking at it like that, the banner seems presumptious. Wouldn't a careful person have waited? See how the chips fall? She didn't. She made the doggone banner-- out of Mithril, no less. That's hope. Hope that he won't just die; hope that he'll win the war; hope that the Ringbearer will get through behind all enemy lines, and that when he does, somehow it will all work out (her father , I think, knew how hard it would be to destroy the ring, just as Gandalf did, so I imagine Arwen knew too.) "Either all hope cometh, or our hope's end." Now... have I ever been through anything quite like that? Well, uh, not exactly... but it's sure food for thought. __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.