Denethor and Gandalf, total opposites?

[Boromir88]

Denethor and Gandalf, have this fond, sort of comical hate towards eachother, but they both brought diferent "qualities" to the table to help Minas Tirith "prevail." Not only prevail, but not one enemy entered Minas Tirith. Both, contribute to the victory of Minas Tirith, and without one Minas Tirith could have very well fallen. So I ask, if Minas Tirith would have been without Denethor or Gandalf would they have one?

Here is my argument,
Denethor learned a lot, and benefitted from the palantir (also was his downfall). He made very few mistakes in the defense of Pelennor and in the defense of Minas Tirith. His one mistake I could see was him sending out Faramir to go reclaim Osgiliath, which turned out to be an utter disaster. Other then that, he had walls set up, he had Gondor's armies coming in, he had sent Hirgon out to find Theoden, lit the beacons. Denethor did very well in setting up the defenses for Gondor. Without him, Gondor's defenses wouldn't have been ready in time.

What Gandalf brings to the table, is his leadership, his "pep-talks." It was said whenever Gandalf was around the hearts of men rose. Lets say Gandalf brings that "fire" to be in which I don't see any more "fire" left in Denethor, he is getting consumed by madness. (Truthfully Denethor had plenty of "fire" lol if you know what I mean). He just didn't have those leadership qualities, as Gandalf did.

Gandalf and Denethor have this comical hatred towards eachother but if Gondor didn't have one or the other, I believe it wouldn't have been victorious.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't think you'll find too much disagreement there.

[Guinevere]

Well, Denethor was only concerned about the wellfare of Gondor; and about the rule of his realm, but Gandalf was concerned about the fate of all the good people of Middle-earth. " For I am also a steward. Did you not know ?" he said to Denethor.

To Pippin who observed the two old men they seemed at first very similar, Denethor even appeared more kingly and powerful to him. But then " he perceived that Gandalf had the greater power and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled."

[ohtatyaro]

But to each his own - Denethor was not supposed to care. Gandalf was not supposed to care about the east, and so Denethor was not supposed to care about more than his country. He was not that bad, as they picture him, I think

[Amanaduial the archer]

Nice post, Boromir.

Denethor was 'blinded by his grief' - it caused him to act rashly. In the end, it could be argued that he became almost a liability in the fight because he seemed to be going mad, determined to have things end his way - when he took Faramir and decided to burn them both, I think it was maybe his way of trying to take control of events that were rapidly spinning out of his grasp, of ending things the way he determined and so having some of his power at the last. Maybe he felt some sort of jealousy or resentment towards Gandalph: Boromir, you said:

What Gandalf brings to the table, is his leadership, his "pep-talks." It was said whenever Gandalf was around the hearts of men rose.

So in this case, it seems, words spoke louder than actions This would probably have hurt Denethor: he had given his life for his city, to lead it strongly as a warrior, one of his sons giving his life for it - giving his life fighting, not talking. But when this white wizard came, this man whose robes were so clean and white it was as if he had never fought a battle in his life, and with a few fine words he stole the hearts of Denethor's people, while moving against the Steward (or so it would seem in Denethor's eyes, for Gandalph obviously wished to finally return the King to his throne) and taking advantage of his hospitality...well, you can see Denethor's point of view.

In this case, but not necessarily throughout LotR, Gandalph and Denethor may be seen as opposites in a way, in the ways they chose to fight (Denethor with actions, Gandalph with words), but maybe this made things rather more difficult in Minas Tirith - there was bound to have been some sort of undercurrent emotional battle between the two characters because of their conflicting interests, and without this - therefore without one of them present to stir things up - it may have gone more smoothly, and success more assured. Maybe things would even have turned out differently for Denethor at the very end, had he still remained entirely in control without the White Wizard to 'challenge' his authority.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Actually, Gandalf takes action and uses swords at times in both The Hobbit and LOTR. In LOTR itself Denethor is somewhat sympathetic, including behaving graciously towards Pippin (not the moronic movie characterization of Denethor).

But on later reflection, JRRT seemed to find Denethor quite flawed. In Letters #183: "Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it were, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. Denethor despised lesser men, and one may be sure did not distinguish between orcs and the allies of Mordor. If he had survived as victor, even without use of the Ring, he would have taken a long stride towards becoming himself a tyrant, and the terms and treatment he accorded to the deluded peoples of the east and southj would have been cruel and vengeful. He had become a 'political' leader: sc. Gondor against the rest."