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08-11-2004, 12:55 PM | #1 |
Spectre of Capitalism
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Battling evil bureaucrats at Zeta Aquilae
Posts: 985
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Had Arwen sailed for elvenhome, whither Aragorn?
I am posting this thread at the insistence of Estelyn Telcontar. Please refer any complaints to her.
At any rate, Esty was commenting on the speculative nature of a particular thread here which I shall not name, but which, IMO, was a waste of bandwidth. I said "if you're going to discuss something speculative, then why not make it something interesting? Like, "What would have happend to Aragorn had Arwen indeed decided to sail for Elvenhome instead of choosing mortality? What kinds of choices would Aragorn have made? Would he have the guts to tough-out the war with Mordor if he'd had no hope of marrying her with his victory? With the obvious attraction between him and Eowyn in the books, would he have still resisted her advances?" I, of course, have my opinions, but I'd like to submit this to the vox populi of the Downs before I set a direction with my own verbosity. Fire away when ready! Thenamir, Known gadfly and pot-stirrer |
08-11-2004, 05:46 PM | #2 | |
Tears of the Phoenix
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby.
Posts: 1,453
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Well, I have always considered Aragorn to be "beyond" us, more noble than any of us could hope to be. I believe this sentence sums it up:
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So, taking that "definition" of Aragorn, I don't believe that he would have been put off doing his duty by the fact that Arwen decided to go to Valinor. It would have been against his nature, against his nobility. Of course, the knowledge that Arwen awaited him at the end was definitely a bonus, but I don't think that he would have been deterred from battle. As for Eowyn, I think he had a definition of love so strong that he could not violate it by marrying Eowyn, a woman he did not truly love.
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08-11-2004, 06:18 PM | #3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Where you want me to be
Posts: 1,036
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I agree with Imladris here. Aragorn definitely wouldn't have abandoned his friends and chosen not to fight simply because he couldn't be with his love at the end of it all. If anything, this might even have fuelled him on further and given him more incentive to beat Sauron.
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Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta. |
08-11-2004, 06:37 PM | #4 | ||||
Spirit of the Lonely Star
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,133
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Thenamir -
Split up Aragorn and Arwen.....tell me it ain't so! Quote:
Whatever changes Arwen's refusal would have made to Aragorn or his kingship, these actually pale in comparison to the enormous impact that such a decision would have had on the human race as a whole, even extending to the music of Eru itself. To put it bluntly, the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn represents the culmination of certain ideas and developments that were present since Creation. It is a critical theme in Tolkien's story. If you or I were to pull on that thread so that it unravelled, you would not only be changing Aragorn's destiny, you would be changing the entire destiny of the human race as Tolkien and, by implication, Eru envisioned it. Let me back up a minute. From the very beginning, Elves were regarded as the "Firstborn" and Men as the "Followers". In the original music, it was intended that eventually Elves would fade and that Men would take their place. Repeatedly in the Letters, Tolkien tells us that Elves and Men represent difference aspects of the Humane. It is Elves who are the true subcreators, who represent.... Quote:
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The single glowing symbol of this is the bodily and spiritual union of Aragorn and Arwen. The promise of Beren and Luthien has been reaffirmed. The Firstborn have departed but they have left the gift of subcreation that, however dilluted, has been passed down in our own bloodlines. Take away Aragorn and Arwen and you might as well rewrite the entire legendarium! As Tolkien says in Letter 153: Quote:
Stepping back and looking at the personal implications, I think you're right. If Arwen had packed her bags and departed for the Havens, or perhaps if the two had never met, Elessar would likely have ended up with Eowyn. And what a turn of events! It would not have worked. Tolkien is very certain about this, describing Eowyn's first feelings for Aragorn as a "theme of mistaken love". (Letter 161) I love Eowyn. I actually find her more understandable and compelling than Arwen. But the Eowyn who fell in love with Aragorn was someone grasping at straws. She fell in love with a shadow, perhaps a dream of what a man should be. But I don't believe she saw or understood the real Aragorn who would have been her mate. Once married, the reality would have hit. And I shudder to think of what might have happened. Yes, Aragorn had enough inner gumption to pursue goodness with or without Arwen. I believe he would have made it through the Ring War with Gandalf's guidance as well as his own realization of what Sauron represented. But once the war was over, once peace had come, it would actually have been harder to keep on the path. The pressures would have subsided. His marriage to Eowyn would have been a disaster, and he could more easily have fallen prey to some of the less admirable quality traits that we've seen in some of the earlier kings--those of Numenor, Arnor, and Gondor. If Elessar wins the war, it is Arwen who helps to define the peace: themes of fertility and tranquility and the creativity of the Elves. (Frankly, in traditional literature, that is often the role that women play. ) So Arwen's presence is essential for the era of peace and goodness that was to ensure. Get rid of her and I see Gondor falling down the slippery slope once more, even with Elessar's rule.
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Multitasking women are never too busy to vote. Last edited by Child of the 7th Age; 08-11-2004 at 09:36 PM. |
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08-11-2004, 07:24 PM | #5 |
Wight
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Um, excuse me if I'm completly wrong here, but didn't Aragorn think Arwen was dead after Elrond's little visit before he went on the paths of the dead? Its been a while since I've read ROTK in its entirety, so I'm not sure if that's the book's version or PJ's.
Anyway, I think Aragorn would have went to Mordor and fought, but he may have been.... (how do I say this?) less careful with himself if he didn't think there was his true love waiting for him. Yes, Aragorn is an idealized version of mankind, but he was still a man who had a heart that could break. If Arwen left, I truely think Aragorn's heart would have broke, and he would have fulfilled his 'duty' to mankind and fought at Mordor, but his heart wouldn't have been anywhere near the battle.
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08-11-2004, 08:27 PM | #6 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
Posts: 1,814
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Lhundulinwen-- Nope, that's all movie-version. The movie has that whole "Oh no, Arwen's fate is tied to that of the Ring" thing going on, but in the book none of that happened and Elrond never went to Dunharrow. Aragorn had Anduril since leaving Rivendell with the Fellowship.
You do make a good point about Aragorn not being as motivated to fight. I have no doubts that he would not have abandoned his friends, but he would only have matters of honor and what is right to fight for, not love. |
08-12-2004, 04:34 AM | #7 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 59
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08-12-2004, 05:49 AM | #8 |
Brightness of a Blade
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Aragorn might have not been as careful with his life if Arwen had chosen to leave him. He would have gone to battle and fought bravely, since his allegiance to Gondor and the good guys was something separate from his love for Arwen, even the latter motivated him in everything he did. Maybe he would have been even more brave than usual, and reckless, taking too many risks, eventually maybe getting himself killed.
As for what he'd do afterwards, once he returned safe and victorious to Gondor, I don't think he would have married Eowyn. The movie makes a good point in him not encouraging Eowyn even when he thought he'd never see Arwen again. I see him as marrying someone as noble as he is, out of duty for his people, feeling more respect and kindness towards his wife. Maybe someone from Prince Imrahil's kin, someone with Elvish ancestry, to pass on the fertility and creativity represented by this race, that Child of the Seventh Age talked about.
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