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10-31-2004, 03:08 PM | #1 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 08 - Farewell to Lórien
This chapter completes the Lothlórien trilogy. It begins with another audience of the Fellowship with Celeborn and Galadriel, where their resolve to continue is tested by her gaze. Though they are offered the option of staying in Lothlórien, none of them wish to do so. The decision to choose their goal is postponed by the offer of boats, so that they do not have to decide on which side of the shore they will travel.
Aragorn is shown to be indecisive; his role as leader of the Fellowship means that he cannot freely choose to go to Minas Tirith as he originally wished to do. Boromir’s speech betrays his thoughts once again, with Frodo being the one who notices his budding desire for the Ring. We are introduced to several Elvish objects that are given to the Fellowship: lembas, the cloaks, and the hithlain ropes. The two poems that are included are both Elven, both sung by Galadriel at their farewell: I sang of leaves is recorded in Common Speech; Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen! in Quenya, with a translation immediately following. I find it interesting that the actual farewell scene is postponed until they have already left, almost as an afterthought; it reminds me of the hobbits’ farewell from Goldberry, which was similarly placed. Celeborn explains the route to them, then Galadriel gives the gifts – after drinking the ritual cup of parting with them. We’ve already mentioned that she calls him “a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings” in the previous chapter, but that she is the one who distributes the gifts. I think we can assume that the gifts are from both of them, so that it doesn’t matter much – or does it? I will not elaborate on the individual gifts, as I’m sure that those will be discussed enthusiastically! I stumbled over Galadriel’s words to Gimli, though: “You shall not be the only guest without a gift.” Now, she had prepared gifts for all the others, so I cannot imagine that she would deliberately have left him out! Did she know his heart and want to give him the opportunity to present his request? What was the reason for this special treatment? I must say, this scene and the closing conversation of Gimli with Legolas endeared the Dwarf to me forever. His poetic words and gallantry are lovely and touching! I have quite a few of those sentences underlined in my book: Quote:
(In closing, I’d like to point to a very well-done reverse version of “I sang of leaves” which Elennar Starfire wrote and posted here just today.)
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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10-31-2004, 04:06 PM | #2 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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Finally, I can post what I've been trying to for the past two weeks, lol.
So far we have seen Boromir against every decision of the Fellowship (Moria, Lothlorien, then later Amon Hen). Of course we don't miss any of his complaining either. And it has got me thinking, is Boromir in the Fellowship for the wrong reasons? I think the answer comes out the most in this chapter. Quote:
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10-31-2004, 08:33 PM | #3 |
Bittersweet Symphony
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise
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Since Celeborn didn't get nearly enough discussion in the last chapter...
We've been talking a lot about that guy who seems to tag along with Galadriel all the time, who is supposed to be incredibly wise and a great giver of gifts. While Imladris certainly stuck up for the poor, oft-forgotten Elven Lord, the general consensus seemed to be that he wasn't really living up to his reputation. Here, though, we see a decision Celeborn makes that does reflect wisdom: his choice to provide the Fellowship with boats.
Boromir has wanted to go back to Minas Tirith since the start, and yet the others are not sure if they should follow him there or make their way directly to Mordor. Having boats delays the necessity of making their choice, which may very well separate them should they choose different ways. Is there wisdom in delaying the inevitable? I think that in this case it was a good idea, for it gave them the chance to think things over a bit more (even though things didn't turn out as planned at all). Argh... I just found a typo in my book... and that irks me. |
10-31-2004, 09:12 PM | #4 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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IMO, the Lorien boats were no minor gift. The exhibit at the Museum of Science in Boston drove this home; I know pea-pods and double-enders, and I'm not unfamiliar with canoes.
A hundred years ago when wooden boatmaking was common in Sebago and environs, a boat like the one Boromir rode down the falls would sell for upwards of three hundred dollars, take all winter to make, and represent the farmer's primary (sometimes only) winter income. If someone gave me a boat like that for three or four days use (knowing I would discard it afterwards), I'd consider it a major gift. Hand carved paddles? Rope? Provisions? Yup. Good stuff. Thanks, Celeborn.
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10-31-2004, 10:18 PM | #5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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A key question here is was it a wise decision to provide boats and thus put off a
decision. Given following book descriptions (and ignoring the movie) it would seem that on either side of the Anduin there would have been at least a period of relative freedom from immediate danger. If the eastern side was chosen Boromir would presumably have left the fellowship, to the benefit of Gondor (at least during the War of the Ring), and with obvious major changes in the story plot. If the western side of the Anduin one would presume the existent plot would basically have remained intact. I am not at all convinced that it was a wise decision to take to the boats. When reading that passage I'm always struck by a feeling that a crucial "decision" is made, for some reason, more so then in say, entering Moria. Atmospherically, it has the feel to me of the scene (and music) in the movie "Death on the Nile" when the cruise ship sets off down the Nile.
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11-01-2004, 02:27 AM | #6 | |||||||||||||||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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Apologies in advance for this long post - I won't requires notes from anyone to be excused from reading it!
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Similarly, Anduril is not simply Aragorn’s sword - it is an heirloom of his house, forged from the shards of his ancestor’s sword. So, it too symbolises Aragorn’s power & authority, & the gift of the scabbard carries the blessing of the Elves’, the otherworldly ‘powers’ within Middle-earth. It is gifted by their ‘Queen’, & received by the King on a visit to the Otherworld, just as with Arthur. We know the Company have been in the otherworld, in the world of dreams, not simply by the atmosphere of the place, by the ‘magic’ they experience there, but also by clear statements made, first & most clearly, by Celeborn, who greets Aragorn with the words: Quote:
&, secondly & more subtly, by the author, who tells us: Quote:
Why not? Because they are already dreaming - their whole experience in the golden Wood is a kind of extended ‘waking’ dream. This ‘dream’ begins with Frodo falling asleep in the Mallorn tree on the borders of Lorien: Quote:
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Tolkien originally intended to emphasise this dreamlike aspect of Lorien by having no time pass while the company were there. CT comments (The Treason of Isengard p285-6) : Quote:
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We also get another account of Elven ‘magic’, as Galadriel tells how she ‘created’ Lorien - she ‘sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, & leaves of gold there grew. She then sang of the wind, & the wind struck up & blew through those same leaves. Yet it seems her power of song is fading - her ‘crown’ is now nothing but ‘fading elanor’ - dying flowers, reminding us of ‘Frodo’s Dreme’: Quote:
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‘Namarie’, Galadriel’s Lament, is the other poem - Tolkien’s own melody for it is apparently based on Gregorian chant (& he sings it very well). A couple of interesting points are made by Tolkien in ‘The Road Goes Ever On’. First there is the mention of miruvor: Yeni ve linte yuldar avanier mi oromardi lisse-miruvoreva Andune pella Vardo tellumar nu luini, yassen tintillar i eleni omaryo aire-tari-lirinen recalls the cordial of Imladris & Tolkien’s account of it is: Quote:
Second, the reference to Varda having ‘uplifted her hands like clouds, & all paths are drowned deep in shadow’. Tolkien explains: Quote:
Finally, to Gimli’s gift - three golden hairs from her head for an heirloom & a pledge of goodwill between the Mountain & the Wood. Living ‘gold’ - as perfect a symbol of the union of Elven & Dwarven natures as can be imagined - & once set in imperishable crystal it will outlast both races, forever a pledge of good will between those who will soon (relatively speaking) be no more: Quote:
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http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showpos...&postcount=127 )
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“Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects." Last edited by davem; 11-01-2004 at 02:33 AM. |
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11-01-2004, 04:55 AM | #7 | |
Stormdancer of Doom
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11-01-2004, 08:49 AM | #8 | |||||||
Laconic Loreman
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Lhunardawen
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There's a couple more things to add. Quote:
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11-01-2004, 01:55 PM | #9 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Sep 2002
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So, whatever caused his joining the Fellowship, it was well done. Huzzah for Boromir! Quote:
Abedithon le, ~ Saphy ~
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The Hitchhiking Ghost Last edited by Sapphire_Flame; 11-01-2004 at 03:47 PM. |
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11-01-2004, 02:05 PM | #10 | |
Laconic Loreman
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11-02-2004, 03:42 AM | #11 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Hobbits seem to have unleashed their fascination for magic in the Lothlorien trilogy!
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Arguably, the most interesting gift given by Galadriel to the Company was Gimli's. If we try to remember the events two ages ago, we'll see that this has happened before; that someone asked Galadriel for some of her hair. The first to make such a request was Feanor, and from Galadriel's hair it was said he found the inspiration for making the Silmarils. But despite her close kinship with Feanor, Galadriel refused his request. But two ages had passed, and here a Dwarf makes the same request, and she willingly obliged! |
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11-02-2004, 03:38 PM | #12 | |||||
Beloved Shadow
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(not unless you think Aragorn also went along for the wrong reason) Quote:
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Remember, when they reached Rauros Aragorn was leaning heavily towards dividing the Fellowship. He suggested that Frodo, Sam, and Gimli would continue on towards Mordor and the rest would go with Boromir (Aragorn planned on staying with Frodo). So if they had to make that decision earlier who is to say that Legolas, Merry, and Pippin would not have gone with Boromir? That definitely would've changed things. But if they would've chosen the western bank... how do they get to Mordor??? There isn't a place to cross the Anduin until Gondor so the Fellowship would stay together and likely end up in Minas Tirith. That could change the story in many ways. I think the boats were a super super gift. It moved the point of no return back a little.
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the phantom has posted.
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11-03-2004, 08:41 PM | #13 | |||
Laconic Loreman
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11-04-2004, 07:05 AM | #14 | ||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
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I must thank everyone for this discussion of Boromir - I’ve been thinking a lot about him recently, & I think my opinions are changing. This will be a bit fumbling & possibly a bit contradictory, as I’m trying to put some thoughts together.
I think we have to ask what Tolkien actually wanted to do with Boromir. He goes, in the early drafts, from the only human presence in the Fellowship, through various phases, becoming a villain as [b]B88[/i] has indicated, to his final incarnation of flawed ‘hero’, bravely sacrificing himself for Merry & Pippin. The question is: is Boromir’s final incarnation simply an amalgam of bits & pieces from the earlier accounts & a foil for the others, or is he a valid character in his own right? Well, he’s believable - he doesn’t come across as an amalgam. He has many obvious faults, but also many virtues. As to the question of whether he would have left Frodo & gone on to Minas Tirith if he’d survived depends on whether he’d been overwhelmed by his desire for the Ring against his will, or whether he’d willingly surrendered to it. Did Tolkien intend him to be seen as a ‘Judas’ figure - a ‘satan’ within the Fellowship, the one who betrayed Frodo & brought about his death? It seems that he was motivated by desire for power - not simply power to defeat Sauron, but power for its own sake - yet that was natural in a sense: he’d been brought up to rule, & probably the only person he’d ever taken orders from was his father. This would put him in an incredibly difficult position, as he surrendered his natural authority first to Gandalf, then to Aragorn & finally (in a struggle he lost) to Frodo. He has gone from being a ruling ‘prince’ & commander, to a footsoldier having to obey orders. Lets give him his due, he submits to external authority better than many in his position would have. Certainly, all his suggestions are valid (apart from the last one he makes to Frodo). He may glory in war, but it is a ‘just’ war. His suggestion at the council, to use the Ring against Sauron, may have been dismissed but it was a rational reaction - he at least didn’t suggest throwing it into the sea! In the second branch of the Mabinogion, ‘Branwen, Daughter of Llyr’, we find two brothers - Nissien & Efnissien: Quote:
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Like Efnissien, Boromir is a great defender of his people, a great patriot, but this makes him intolerant & contemptuous of others - not uncommon in our own times - how many times do we hear, instead of ‘This is a great democracy’, ‘This is the greatest democracy’, or instead of ‘This is one of the best countries in the world’ that ‘This is the best country in the world’ with little or no evidence to back that claim up? Boromir is too certain of himself, his people & his nation, but while that may be a fault it is motivated by a sincere & deeply felt love. He would have died willingly for Gondor, but before he joined the Fellowship he wouldn’t have died for a couple of hobbits. Basically, his experiences break him of his pride & his desire, & that only becomes possible when he has sunk as low as possible. My own sense is that Boromir’s growing desperation is due less to a desire for the Ring - which is merely the catalyst - & more to an awakening into maturity. He’s fighting against all the values & beliefs he’s been brought up with - power, control, the superiority of Gondor - I think this is what the Ring comes to symbolise for him. Its this inner conflict which explodes in his confrontation with Frodo. Basically, he’s ‘torn in two’, fighting on two fronts. As much as anything his attempt to claim the Ring for himself is a temporary victory of his old self over his slowly emerging new self. I’m not sure I agree that his desire for the Ring would have re-asserted itself if he’d survived. A ‘madness’ took him, but it passed, & as Aragorn told him, in the end he had conquered. I’m starting to feel that Boromir’s story is one of spiritual growth - he begins as cocky, self assured & intolerant & is gradually humbled & eventually broken. In the end he arises as a new person. While it may have been better for the Company of Faramir had gone instead of Boromir, it wouldn’t have been better for Boromir. Effectively, he was saved in the end, & became a hero, but, more importantly, he became a good man. So, while perhaps we may find out a lot about Aragorn by comparing him with Boromir, I think Boromir is more than just a foil to the greater hero. |
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11-04-2004, 09:07 AM | #15 | ||
Deadnight Chanter
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11-04-2004, 09:10 AM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: commonplace city
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Alas, poor Boromir....
All this Boromir talk ....
Davem, I agree on your analysis you just posted. Boromir joining the fellowship for the wrong reasons...,, etc IMO strays a little from the authors intent (at least in the final version of the character). Comparing Boromir to Aragorn is like comparing Celeborn to Galadriel. Apples and oranges. On a symbolic level, the fellowship was a representation of the free peoples of ME. I love the Efnissien analogy. To me, Aragorn symbolized the ideal of mankind. Boromir symbolized the reality of men, especially at this time in ME. This was a very dirty, complex and hazardous time for men, esp in the south. They werent fighting Sauron for ideals, they were fighting him for survival. I dont think there was much concern for the other free peoples of ME, although Im sure that they would credit themselves as being the bulwark for their surivival for most of the 3rd age if the opportunity presented itself. With Boromir comes the complexities and politics of leadership of men that comes with dealing with these circumstances as well. With him we see the reality of humans as we are today, only juxtapositioned to the reality of his time, where more ancient principles or ideals still had an influence, as personified by elven leadership and even Aragorn himself. I also see Boromirs interaction and reaction with Galadriel as the real future of elf human relations if you will. Aragorn (and some of his lineage no doubt) held the hope for a higher ideal for mankind (based on a real physical link to elven culture), but in the big scheme of things, this was only a blip on the map. Boromir represented the reality of how men would relate to elves - wary - esp towards the otherworldly or witchcrafty elements of elves. Ignorant yes, but if your stuck in the "here and now" and do not posess the gifts that elves had, only the truly learned (or gifted) would not have this attitude. At the end of this chapter, I see Boromir affected in a positive way by the Lorien experience, if only by the confrontation of the feelings he had towards the ring and the mission. These are the same feelings he pronounced at the Council. Nothing has changed, exept perhaps his reflections now are on a deeper level. Elrond and Galadriel knew - his role in the mission was sort of a representation of the humans mission in ME - with all the weaknesses and flaws that men had, they were the ones who were going to be the dominant power for good that would be the only hope to counter Sauron. There simply werent enough elves (or Dunedain for that matter) to make a difference anymore. Regular men - just like us - who have the capability for both good and evil. If they could not fundamentally trust Boromir, then there really is no hope. Galadriel did not wake a sleeping monster in him, his monster resides in every human. |
11-04-2004, 01:30 PM | #17 | ||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
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More Boromir ...
Tsk. Look at us all discussing Boromir when there is so much more in this Chapter. Then again, to my mind, he is one of the most complex and fascinating characters in the book.
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To my mind, Boromir's transformation from pride to humility does not occur until after he attempts to seize the Ring from Frodo. As I said, I like to think that he does truly repent at that point and find redemption, and the quote supplied by HI would support this view. Quote:
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As I have said previously, I believe that Boromir would have made a play for the Ring eventually, even without Galadriel revealing this desire to him - it just would have taken longer (and could, potentially, have been more dangerous).
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11-04-2004, 02:05 PM | #18 | ||
Beloved Shadow
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This is irrational-> expecting a hobbit to safely enter a heavily guarded land, travel for miles and miles without getting caught, and destroy a ring he could not willingly throw into his little fire at home. To Boromir this idea seems much more irrational than attempting to use the Ring. Boromir was a strong-willed man, a leader, and a righteous warrior. Someone so strong is likely to disbelieve the notion that they could be mastered or ensnared by a greater will, in this case the Ring, which leads to my next point... Quote:
Boromir was strong, and a leader, and was used to ruling and having his judgments heard and obeyed. He thought that he could use the Ring safely because he was strong, and he certainly had more faith in his own strength than in the apparent "folly" of the quest. For instance, if my little 6-year-old cousin and I found the Ring and were told "If you use the Ring it will take you over", my cousin wouldn't use it, but I might. Why? Because I'm weaker mentally? No. Because I'm strong- and I would believe that, despite the warning, my strength would be enough to do it. My cousin, on the other hand, is not used to doing things the way he pleases but used to following his elders and so would trust and obey the judgment of his elders. Do you understand what I mean?
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the phantom has posted.
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11-04-2004, 02:28 PM | #19 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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Phantom, you bring up some good points.
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11-05-2004, 12:00 PM | #20 | |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
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Sorry to interrupt... but I just wanted to say..
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11-05-2004, 04:32 PM | #21 | ||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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A river runs through
Well, now that everyone has posted their thoughts about the psychology of Boromir, I can weigh in with my thoughts about the narrative requirements for the character. This is not to deny the very interesting comments which all have made here; I seem to be more interested less in the question of "what kind of person is Boromir" and more interested in the question, "if a writer throws various characters together on a quest, how are those characters determined by the needs of the quest and the story?"
In our discussions, we often seem to be moving between two poles, of realism and of fantasy. I would say that, for me, this chapter partakes more of sybolism than realism, although the later is not absent. What do I mean by this? I mean that so much of what is given here seems more than just ... given. There are portents to most aspects of the chapter which are in keeping with the nature of Lorien as the land of fairey. davem, your references to the Mabingolion increase my interest. The more I think about the old Celtic tales the more I think we should have a thread devoted to the uses Tolkien might have made of them. There is something more here than the oft-stated desire to creat a mythology for England. What do you think, davem? But to return to what I mean by the symbolic aspects of the chapter. It is, of course, the completion of this section which as Aiwendil has pointed out bears many structural affinities with the three chapter of respite in Book I. The Anduin is not just a river to traverse. It is not simply a conduit from Lothlorien to Minas Tirith but it is a threshold or liminal feature. It balances east and west. "On what side will you journey?" asks Celeborn of the Fellowship, the sides clearly representing on the west the side of light and on the east the side of dark. Boromir states that he will not take the darker shore and would prefer heading for MInas Tirith, but of course he will, ironically, take the darker shore. Here I think we have the subtle interplay of good and evil which suggests that Tolkien's world is not so easily demarcated between the two. For Frodo and Sam, this is a journey into the heart of darkness as much as Conrad's journey was. Of course, the gifts which the elves offer the Fellowship have their symbolic portents also. But what I think is important is the way this chapter very subtly sets up the roles of Boromir and Aragorn, not only in terms of the realism of character psychology but also in terms of what this quest means. Boromir is still thinking in terms of Gondor. Quote:
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The chapter concludes with that heartbreaking conversation between Legolas and Gimli which [b]Estelyn and Mithalwen[b] have already mentioned. What is this worst wound which Gimli has taken? It is not the warrior's wound which he had been preparing to take. Rather, it is the horrible wrenching which must come after he has found the greatest good for him. He must foresake the light and joy. Not for Gimli is the satan's test and challenge, for Gimli shall withstand it and not give in to his heart's desire. Beauty is as much a peril as evil. And the true hero is he who holds to the path and does not give in to his desires. It is not a question of being tricked by either Galadriel or the Ring: the responsibility lies within the person. (I would reference that old line from the TV show "Laugh-In" here: "The Devil made me do it.. At least I seem to remember that line being a joking refrain there.) Then the chapter concludes with the sombre imagery of a night journey upon a silent and desolate river. In the heart of Fairey there is still a lesson to be learned.
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11-06-2004, 03:13 AM | #22 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Still, this is a bit off topic, so I'll think about a thread. |
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11-06-2004, 09:33 AM | #23 | |||
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Quick thought.
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Is this another example of Galadriel’s ability to see into the future? |
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11-06-2004, 09:55 AM | #24 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
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A brief additional off topic observation on Tolkien and Ireland:
It's curious how he seemed, whle liking Ireland as a country and its people, not to be especially taken with its language or mythology. Two excerpts from "Letters": Quote:
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Aure Entuluva! |
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11-06-2004, 10:22 AM | #25 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Thanks for that information, davem! That does put the presents which are underrated and least discussed in another light!
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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