LotR -- Book 2 - Chapter 10 - The Breaking of the Fellowship

[Estelyn Telcontar]

With this chapter, we finish our discussions of The Fellowship of the Ring. Congratulations to all participants for your endurance in staying with the discussion for these past months, and thanks for all of the great contributions! We hope interest will continue as we begin The Two Towers next week.

Now, for this week’s discussion: The decision must be made. It is no coincidence that it is made at Amon Hen, the Seat of Seeing. Yet it is not a decision which is made on the basis of information, but it is about the will to do the task that is necessary. Frodo has a choice, and though good and evil struggle within (and without) him, it is his own will which makes the choice.

The importance of Boromir for that choice is unquestionable; various aspects of his speech and behaviour will certainly form a major part of our discussion, especially since we have discussed his ‘corruption’ through the Ring as evidenced in the previous chapters. I noticed a typical horror element in his encounter with Frodo – the latter’s feeling that unfriendly eyes were watching him, then turning around only to see a friend, one whom he has trusted until now. Later, I can’t help but wonder about his closing sentence to Frodo: “A madness took me, but it has passed.” Has it? I have serious doubts and think that his obsession with the Ring would not have been over, had Frodo returned.

I find it very interesting to see the surrounding world through Frodo’s eyes on Amon Hen – before the Fellowship splits, we get a look at the overall situation of Middle-earth. I wonder, is it the location that has ‘magical’ properties, enabling anyone who comes there to see? Did the Numenoreans find it or impart some special quality to the location? Does the Ring have something to do with Frodo’s expanded sight?

Meanwhile, the others make their decisions, though those are later overthrown by the circumstances. What do you think their choices say about each of them?

The closing scene with Sam and Frodo is one that the movie reproduced very well, staying quite close to the book.

I assume that all of the editions of the book have the brief notice at the end of the chapter, telling of the next books and what will happen there. Does anyone know if Tolkien or the publisher wrote those?

[Boromir88]

Ahhh, here is the true breaking of the Fellowship, the destruction of this waning friendship.

First off, I have a few comments to Esty, who again has done a wonderful job getting the discussion started, and has brought up some good ones to discuss, I thank yee Esty.

“A madness took me, but it has passed.” Has it? I have serious doubts and think that his obsession with the Ring would not have been over, had Frodo returned.

I think we can all say that if Boromir, by some chance, met up with Frodo again and had to pass the same test, he would have again failed. But I think his closing words, he was speaking truth. A madness did pass through him, and it did pass. Now, it slipped back into his "unconsciousness," so for a time it has "passed" through him, but if he was faced with it again, it would arise again, and again he would have fallen to the ring.

I think what's interesting is Frodo is again left with the decision of "what to do?" As the ringbearer, he holds on what happens, where they go next. Frodo's first decision of going to Moria, ended in despair, ended with the death of Gandalf. Now, he's faced with that same decision, where to go? Maybe, learning from his previous error, he decides, he has to get out of the company, and I think Boromir was the final nudge Frodo needed to just do that. Boromir showed Frodo that the Ring was tearing the Fellowship apart, and Boromir was only the first to fall. The Ring saw Boromir's weakness and went after him, but how long would it take for the Ring to start bending it's will on one of the other members? Boromir made Frodo realize he wasn't safe around the Company with the Ring, and he had to get out before another member turned into a Boromir.

What's interesting though is it is Sam who goes along with Frodo. And I say this because, the Ring doesn't seem to effect Sam much. Maybe the ring sees that Sam is so simply, and loves Frodo so much, it would be hard to corrupt someone like Sam, so in steps Gollum, ahhh, now the ring has somebody to work with...this could lead to further discussions down the road.

There's one quote from Boromir's that does intrigue me, and this is when we see him first go "mad."

"It is by our own folly that the Enemy will defeat us," cried Boromir, "How it angers me! Fool! Obstinate Fool! Running wilfully to death and ruining our cause. If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!"

This quote intrigues me, because running wilfully to death and ruining our cause. I'm sorry Boromir, I adore you, but the "cause" is to destroy the ring, and what would ruin the "cause" if by someone taking it to try to overthrow Sauron. Also, If any mortals have claim to the Ring, it is the men of Numenor, and not Halflings. Again, ok Isildur caried the Ring, but it's not his, it's nobody's but Sauron's. Secondly, sorry again Boromir, but you aren't "numenorean," you are part numenorean, but not full. Problem is at this time Boromir was truly mad and truly corrupted by the ring, so I don't think he's in control of what he's doing and here's why.

He rose and passed his hand over his eyes, dashing away the tears. "What have I said?" he cried. "What have I done..."

After Frodo leaves Boromir has no idea what he did, besides the fact that he's rubbing away the tears, and a "madness" had took him. I would have to say, that Boromir wasn't in control of what he was saying or doing, the Ring had taken control of him, it had fed his desires, took control, and when it left, the Boromir we all love, is back in control, not this "mad Boromir."

I love the tension Tolkien builds up, or maybe the foreshadowing evil.

Suddenly he awoke from his thoughts: a strange feeling came to him that something was behind him, that unfriendly ees were upoin him. He sprang up and turned; but all that he saw to his surprise was Boromir, and his face was smiling and kind.

He laid his hand on the hobbit's shoulder in friendly fashion; but Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. He stepped quickly away, and eyed with alarm, the tall Man, nearly twice his height and many times his match in strength.

First quote, Tolkien does leave you wonder if the "unfriendly eyes upon Frodo," are Boromir's, and it would definately point to that it was Frodo's thought of "unfriendly eyes" were Boromir's. Also, the "tall man, nearly twice his height...etc." is Frodo sort of sizing up Boromir, and saying, oh crap, this guy can beat me with two hands tied behind his back. So Frodo, being as smart as he is always keeps that "stone" between him and Boromir.

I think even in these closing moments, before Boromir's true madness, Boromir is struggling to hold on, he's struggling to resist. But Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. The words "trembling" and "suppressed" come out to me, that at this point, right before Boromir goes mad, is Boromir still fighting within himself to "repent." He's trying to resist the lure, he's trying to "suppress" it, and the "trembling hand" I think points out to the stress falling upon Boromir right now.

Anyway those are my thoughts, cheers.

[THE Ka]

That's really well put. (Better than i'm doing over at the LOTR Astrology project... we're un-decided as to whether he's a Pariotic Cancer or Domineering Scorpio.) Maybe you should check it out sometime.

Again wonderful description of Boromir's clouded mind at the breaking of the fellowship. Couldn't have seen it better described anywhere else.

~Another Nice Ka Post~

[davem]

At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Numenor. Eastward he looked into wide uncharted lands, nameless plains, and forests unexplored. Northward he looked, and the Great River lay like a ribbon beneath him, and the Misty Mountains stood small and hard as broken teeth. Westward he looked and saw the broad pastures of Rohan; and Orthanc, the pinnacle of Isengard, like a black spike. Southward he looked, and below his very feet the Great River curled like a toppling wave and plunged over the falls of Rauros into a foaming pit; a glimmering rainbow played upon the fume. And Ethir Anduin he saw, the mighty delta of the River, and myriads of sea-birds whirling like a white dust in the sun, and beneath them a green and silver sea, rippling in endless lines.

My first response on reading this was of how similar it is to the episode in Matthew chapter 4:

Then the devyll tooke hym up agayne and ledde hym into an excedynge hye mountayne, and shewed hym al the kyngdomes of the worlde, and the beauty of them, and sayde unto hym: all these will I geve the, iff thou wilt faull doune and worshp me. Then sayde Jesus unto hym. Avoyd Satan. For it is written, Thou shalt worshyp thy Lorde God, and hym only shalt thou serve.

(Sorry about the Tyndale translation - it was the first to hand because its my favourite).

CT points out that his father at first wasn’t sure whether the clarity of Frodo’s vision was due to the power of the seat or of the Ring, but either way Frodo’s vision is ‘magical’ or ‘psychic’. Its not the result of him simply being high up. It seems that in the final conception the hill itself enhances the viewer’s sight. My own feeling is that its something that can’t be accounted for, & is simply necessary for the effect. Tolkien needs Frodo to have this vision, so he does. The ‘vision’ itself seems threefold - first there is the vista across the land, nature perfect & for the most part unsullied (though the black spike of Isengard is present). Then there come the signs of war - we’ve moved from the ‘timeless’ world of nature to the temporal world, & the war:

But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. The Misty Mountains were crawling like anthills: orcs were issuing out of a thousand holes. Under the boughs of Mirkwood there was deadly strife of Elves and Men and fell beasts. The land of the Beornings was aflame; a cloud was over Moria: smoke rose on the borders of Lorien. Horsemen were galloping on the grass of Rohan; wolves poured from Isengard. From the havens of Harad ships of war put out to sea; and out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains. All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion.

Finally the vision moves into the heart of evil:

Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Baraddur, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him.

Its almost like the vision in Galadriel’s mirror: first Frodo saw

‘the Mirror cleared and he saw a twilit land. Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky. A long grey road wound back out of sight.’

Then ‘The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of cloudsthe black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, ‘

Finally ‘ The Eye was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing. ‘

As I say, virtually the same vision reiterated. Why Tolkien chose to do this is another question. We have a vision of the world, followed by the appearance of Men, culminating in the vision of ultimate evil.

We do seem to be presented with Frodo’s ‘temptation’ here, & once again the old Boethian/Manichaen problem rears its head. Frodo watches the war, as if spread out on a table below him. He’s distanced from the events, looking down on them, holding the fate of the world literally in his hands. He’s an ‘outsider’, free to choose his course of action. But then he realises something - his response to the Eye:

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger.

It seems that the ‘Voice’ & the ‘Eye’ are both within him & without, internal ‘drives’ & external ‘forces’. Or perhaps he has so ‘internalised’ the Ring & all it represents by this stage that he can’t distinguish the Ring’s response (‘Verily I come, I come to you’) from his own (‘Never, never!). Its interesting that Tolkien writes ‘The two powers strove in him’, but then instantly qualifies this by saying ‘Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented.’

How can Frodo be balanced between something within him? Perhaps for the same reason as Galadriel can say that the Eye ‘is also in my mind’. The whole vision (both visions actually) seem to be both external & internal happenings. There are two ‘wars of the Ring’, & both are summed up in this moment of vision on the Seat of Seeing. Or to be more accurate, there is a single war being fought, & it is fought both by the individual & within him.

One last point, for now, about Boromir. Was anyone else struck by how Gollum like he became in the confrontation with Frodo - moving between being friendly, almost wheedling, then haughty & threatening, & finally attacking him & then bursting into tears when he fails? You can almost see the same thing happening in Isildur. It seems that Tolkien sees this as the inevitable transformation of the personality that the Ring brings about.

[Aldarion Elf-Friend]

I, for one, am looking forward to the continuing discussion on Two Towers and on through the trilogy. In fact, when we're all done I hope that we can continue with The Hobbit or my personal favorite, the Silmarilion. That, however, is a discussion for some future time.

Several things jumped out at me in this chapter. First, when Frodo wore the ring at the seat of Amon Hen, he almost had a showdown with Sauron right then and there. When he removed the ring the description is of a shadow passing over, missing Amon Hen and continuing westward. However, when he makes up his mind to continue on alone he puts the ring back on without drawing again the attention of they Eye. I haven't yet figured out when the ring draws him and when it doesn't. After all, Sam puts on the ring in Cirith Ungol, on the very borders of Mordor.

Another thing that jumped out at me was the wisdom of Master Samwise. I think that everyone will agree that Sam is the true hero of this book. After all, Frodo only had to put up with the ring. Sam had to put up with Frodo!

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet. Before the journey, Sam was only a servant - the gardener. Maybe a trusted servant, but certainly not the confidant he becomes. I point to the final birthday party as evidence - Merry, Pippen and Fatty are there, but not Sam. I think that the Professor is giving us an insight to his real thoughts concerning "high-" and "low-" born people. Namely, don't discount the opinion/experience/thoughts of someone just because they don't come from good breeding.

Finally, I thought that the tempting of Boromir is another scene that translated well onto the screen. My only disappointment was when Frodo disppeared at the end, and seemed to vanish from Boromir's grasp at the same time. Either way, Sean Bean acted it very well. (I have, by the way, recanted on the tempting of Galadrial scene - I watched it again last week when it was on UPN (on my birthday, thank you very much), and was most disappointed..)

[drigel]

Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him.

Was this other power Frodo's internal voice or something else? I always thought that this was the point where Gandalf came back to ME. In my mind, here was the reason for Gandalfs return - this exact point in Frodo's dire need for help. The rest of G's deeds were worthy, but maybe this particular instance was the clincher in the decision to send him back..?..?

[Firefoot]

Anyway, everyone's sitting around the fire wondering what Frodo's going to choose, and it's so obvious to Sam. Some might argue that this is because Sam is so close to Frodo, but I don't think that's the case, yet.

Which is exactly what I am going to argue. I like your points, but I do think it is largely because Sam is so close to Frodo, and also because Sam is so observant of other people's characters. He doesn't talk a lot, but he takes everything in and he really figures people out. He is particularly protective of Frodo and has known him for a long time, so this characteristic of understanding people is very pronounced in his closeness to Frodo. Also, Frodo says to himself, "But surely they will understand. Sam will." Frodo knows Sam nearly as well as Sam knows Frodo, and he knows that Sam understands him. Sam is a very smart character with a lot of common sense - he just tends not to show it so much in the company of all these 'high' and 'fine' folk.

Something that just occurred to me while reading what other people have had to say about the visions Frodo had on Amon Hen. Perhaps this is why Aragorn desired to go there so much, as he said in the previous chapter:

"Do you not know, Borormir, or do you choose to forget the North Stiar, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind ot stand in that high place again, before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us."

It would appear that these 'magical' qualities of the high seat of Amon Hen were known, at least in Rivendell and possibly Minas Tirith. Aragorn also mentions the seat was "made in the days of the great kings," so I would tend to think that either the Númenoreans or possibly some of the very early kings (i.e. Elendil, Isildur, Anarion) "imparted some special quality to the location" (as Esty so aptly put it).

[HerenIstarion]

With the risk of repeating what’s already been said, but with the hope I can stress on some points not sufficiently discussed yet, I’m forced to comment on some of Fordim’s statements, mainly. Order of their appearence deliberately altered. So:

Originally Posted by Fordim

The basic definition of a tragic hero (get ready to write this down for future reference) is someone whose greatness is his own downfall

Verily true. But that definition applies to all living human beings as well. The general rule being, the more great is one the futher s/he will fall, and more prone to falling. It is easy to stroll the plains, and fall will bring no more than some bruises, but try to climb the pinnacle – you’ve get more satisfaction in case you succed, but you get more hurt if you fall. Is Melkor a tragic hero or a sample of what may befall anyone (anyone with a free will, that is?)

Originally Posted by Fordim

Like all tragic heroes, Boromir is neither good nor bad

Now that’s not true. Hamlet, being a Christian should have seen that, as both actions were sinful, he must have taken neither, Oedipus, as a member of society which valued bravery and wisdom, should have seen that suicide is neither brave nor wise.

But let them other literary characters be at peace and let’s turn back to Boromir. To argue his character and his flaws, one should admitt that Good is a base, the Fact, and Evil a by-product – i.e. assume Boethian point of view of Good and Evil. Further still, one has to admitt that, though groundless, or being a twisted Good, Evil can be present as active force, and is indeed so in the plane of reality LoTR presents us with – i.e. originally Good Sauron as persnification of Evil (in Mordor where the shadows are). But being an active force, Evil has to employ remnants of Good it still retains – i.e. to win battles, evil soldiers should be reckless (form of courage, which is a virtue), and their captains cunning (form of wisdom/reason which is virtue)

Having those provisos in mind, I’d argue that Boromir is good, but not good enough. What he wishes, and Ring tempts him to use its Power in achieving, is Good – indeed, what is bad in Saving Gondor, Helping His Father and Having Peace and Prosperity for the People? But there is a flaw in his aims and wishes at the outset – he wishes this good not as good per se, but as good brought about by Boromir himself. The victory of Gondor is to be lead by him, Gondorian arms should win glory, but with him as a general, there should be peace, but with his help. That is a chink Ring works through to seize him. “I want to have power to save Gondor” is his maxim, not “I want Gondor saved even if I take no part in it, even if I’m labelled coward for not taking a part in it, even if I die in exile and all who remember me are ashamed of mentioning my name”. Indeed, two parts of his resolution are almost equal – he wants to save Gondor and to have personal glory. If the latter of the two maxims (I want to save Gondor even...) would have been his imperative, the Ring would not have been able to tempt him in that direction. For than “I wan’t to save Gondor from the Dark Lord, regardless the risk of having start-up Dark Lord replace him at the very heart of Gondor’” would terrify him as bringing ruing of Gondor in the long run – as he was told that claiming the Ring to oneself would end in another Dark Lord arising.

Don’t misunderstand me. Nobody in ME is good enough in that respect – nor even Gandalf. All who started wishing good for others, through ring would wish only their own good for others, and here quote from Henry Thoreau (by davem in post #35) comes into play. (Chap coming to do us good, run for it, gents!) Indeed it is stated, not in this chapter but elswhere, that Sauron intended good for ME in the beginning – to have order and peace. But values, good with a proviso, tend to become simply bad with the time, and Boromir’s “I want to have power to save Gondor” would become mere “I want to have power” with no “save Gondor” to give it at least a slight flavour of ‘good end’ on the finish line.

Originally Posted by Fordim

and there's nothing he can do to change that

That’s not true either (unless you mean he can't do it all by himself) – he can and he does a lot to change that – he repents. Not in this chapter, again, but in the following – at his death-bed (well, not bed, exactly) – he acknowledges that Gondor needs merely (in the older sense of the word, i.e. ‘absolute’) good, not good sophisticated by allowances for certain persons to do it, not others, so not necessarily by him, by Boromir, but whoever brings it, he humbles himself to wish this good without provisos and he is saved – the thing which his ‘wiser’ father, Denethor, fails to do (again, further still in the order of chapters)

[davem]

I think H-I makes the point well - the very fact that Boromir's final words are words of repentance shows that he knows he was wrong in what he did. He feels he has paid a deserved price for what he attempted. Aragorn's response that actually he had 'conquered' clearly is not meant to refer to the battle with the orcs. Boromir's 'conquest' is of something far more powerful & dangerous than mere orcs - because orcs can only kill the body. But more of that next week.

[HerenIstarion]

Thank you, davem.

In addition to Boromir88's post #48, see also The Seven Deadly Sins in Middle-earth by Squatter