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Old 12-25-2004, 05:12 PM   #1
Fingolfin II
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Question None that can hurt him?

This question has plagued me for some time, so I'll now put it to you and see if you have any ideas or comments about it.

In The Two Towers, just after Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli meet Gandalf the White in Fangorn Forest, Gandalf says-

Quote:
'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.' (emphasis mine)
That sentence which I highlighted in bold has been my dilemma. Legolas' bow and Gimli's axe may not be able to hurt Gandalf, but surely Anduril can? If Narsil could pierce Sauron so sufficiently as to destroy his body while he was wearing the Ring, surely Aragorn's sword could hurt Gandalf, a Maia of lesser power?

Perhaps Tolkien made an error here, or Gandalf forgot about Anduril or meant that if Aragorn swung at him with Anduril, he could block it with Glamdring or his staff. Or maybe he means that Narsil has lost it's potency over the years or that Gandalf cannot be defeated in his new form as Gandalf the White by any power in Middle-Earth. If the latter of my suppositions is true, then I assume it would also be true for Sauron at the height of his power during the Last Alliance when he wielded the One Ring. It is said that 'none could withstand Aeglos and Narsil', but if that's true, it also stands to reason that if Sauron took hurt from Narsil, so too would Gandalf. Any ideas?
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Old 12-25-2004, 07:57 PM   #2
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Gandalf the White returned from the dead by the grace of the Valar, didn't he? He no doubt received some kind of power-up, since he was able to put down Saruman.
Sauron had fallen from the Valar's grace, and the Ring was made from his own power, not that of a higher being.

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He lifted his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing to the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire.
Although -
Quote:
And so am I, very dangerous; more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.
Quote:
I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.
Those are against my theory.
Perhaps Anduril/Narsil is only "magical" against the foes of Gondor, as Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist glow blue only when Orcs are present.
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Old 12-25-2004, 09:22 PM   #3
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1420!

There could be another possibility behind the quote you give too. Maybe, Anduril can hurt Gandalf, as in kill him. But, for Gandalf it doesn't really hurt him because he'll be reborn anyway. He'll be sent back to earth again, so technically it doesn't really hurt him.

These are just theories however
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Old 01-09-2005, 01:18 PM   #4
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'Get up; my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.'

this takes place in Fangorn. when Gandalf meets them Aragorn does not yet have Anduril. he recieves it from Elrond's son (cant think of the name) at Dunharrow. so if you look at it, at the time none of them did carry a weapn that could hurt him. but that is a good question though. maybe Anduril could hurt him, but at that time of the book Aragorn did not have it. there is your answer
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Old 01-09-2005, 01:39 PM   #5
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In the books, as opposed to the movie version, Aragorn has got Narsil's shards as early as his first appearence in Bree. In Rivendell, the swords is reforged and renamed. The event is even an indirect cause for Bilbo to give Frodo the Sting - Bilbo intending to have Frodo's broken sword reforged as well but forgetting about it.

So, Aragorn does have Andúril on him in Fangorn

The reason why Gandalf could not be hurt is probably (without textual evidence, but as plausible a theory as I could think of) the fact he is now 'clothed' maia, returned to his original form (though maybe spirit returned to his 'human' body lying on the summit of Redhorn), not fully and finally incarnate as he has been before. So even Andúril would not hurt him - how physical thing can harm spirit?

Why Andúril (or Narsil at its time) does work with Sauron (plus the Ring) is also explainable - Sauron is just recovering from his second loss of bodily form - what he rebuilt for himself is the 'true' flesh - he is incarnate, not able to 'shift' bodies anymore. If we stretch the thing a bit too far, in that state he may have been killed with a fork
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Last edited by HerenIstarion; 01-09-2005 at 03:29 PM. Reason: loooots of typos
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Old 01-12-2005, 12:43 AM   #6
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perhaps aragorn was wary, because legolas's bow and gimli's axe had already been defeated. in that case, gandalf would simply have had to move his staff ever so slightly, and aragorn would fail. and also, Isildur would have been in fury, for his father had just recieved a fatal wound.
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