Ioreth

[Assasin]

Does anyone have a clue what she was like?

[Mithalwen]

Assassin

This is from my post in "The Role of Women in The Lord of the Rings" (Books)

"May I give Ioreth a further mention. She is admittedly a fairly minor character but she gets a fairly raw deal, I think. She is seen as a somewhat ridiculous figure prattling away and self important, but I think that prattle is a habit of those who are seldom listened to. Remember that she is (apart from Eowyn) the only named woman in the city and the city is a warzone, so she is actually quite brave. It is reasonable to assume that the only family she has are the mentioned sisters. She represents another category - the women whose work and worth are unappreciated, in a society where unmarried and unmarriagiable women have little staus. She is the Miss Bates of LOTR useful only for the care of the sick and a butt of humour; and a very good reminder for women of my generation to be grateful for the feminists of earlier generations........"


BTW
Element Fire I know this is Novices and Newcomers and the level of discussion is not expected to be as serious as on "Books" but if there is any point to your comment perhaps you would like to explain it? And if there isn't...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

"May I give Ioreth a further mention. She is admittedly a fairly minor character but she gets a fairly raw deal, I think. She is seen as a somewhat ridiculous figure prattling away and self important, but I think that prattle is a habit of those who are seldom listened to. Remember that she is (apart from Eowyn) the only named woman in the city and the city is a warzone, so she is actually quite brave. It is reasonable to assume that the only family she has are the mentioned sisters. She represents another category - the women whose work and worth are unappreciated, in a society where unmarried and unmarriagiable women have little staus. She is the Miss Bates of LOTR useful only for the care of the sick and a butt of humour; and a very good reminder for women of my generation to be grateful for the feminists of earlier generations........"

Never thought of her before as being brave, but as you mention, she stayed to help in a war zone. Nice insights.

I happen to see her as another LOTR character with a unique and distinctive 'voice' - sure she wags her tongue a bit, but who would remember her if she just stated the facts? I saw her as no more or less in stature than that of the Warden (or Beregond, or Denethor, etc) who again has a different 'woolgathering' voice.

Was Tolkien trying to say something in that ME's savior is a small 'intellectual' hobbit, and the savior of Merry, Faramir and Eowyn (amongst others) is Ioreth of stature proposed by Mithalwen?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by alatar

Was Tolkien trying to say something in that ME's savior is a small 'intellectual' hobbit, and the savior of Merry, Faramir and Eowyn (amongst others) is Ioreth of stature proposed by Mithalwen?

I have to say that I am not sure I wouldn't go that far.. I wouldn't say that she is particularly significant to the story - other than it oils Aragorn's acceptance by his people, and I think Tolkien meant no more than for her to provide a little light relief at a moment of high tension and as a device to get Aragorn into the city

If you look at the original thread, she crops up as an example of an "ordinary", non-idealised woman. Perhaps she is the only one with a distinctive voice as you put it (and certainly she is distinctive).

If you look at the " Houses of healing", it says that she is an old wife - wife originally simply meant woman - eldest of those who served there. She has some herb lore and if she is ignorant of the what is going on it is becasue she has focused on the sick. Gandalf calls her a "wise-woman" (altogether now "There are two things you should know about the wise woman... one .. she is wise..")

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I have to say that I am not sure I wouldn't go that far.. I wouldn't say that she is particularly significant to the story - other than it oils Aragorn's acceptance by his people, and I think Tolkien meant no more than for her to provide a little light relief at a moment of high tension and as a device to get Aragorn into the city.

True, but she does 'establish' Aragorn as the King as she reminds him that he needs to be a healer too. I think she shows 'acceptance' by the untitled people who aren't impressed with titles, lineages or skill with a sword.

If you look at the original thread, she crops up as an example of an "ordinary", non-idealised woman. Perhaps she is the only one with a distinctive voice as you put it (and certainly she is distinctive).

She gives the story a 'real' feel in that she is earthy/common - no elvish or Numenorian blood, no elvish prophecy in her head, no great feats of daring-do...During the coronation of the first king in *how* many generations she's still talking! How cool is that? ("Sure, the Nameless One was defeated and the King has returned, but wait until you hear what *I* did!").

Plus, Tolkien has so many major and minor characters to deal with that I think that you are to assume that there are many such Ioreths (ordinary woman) like there are many such Bergils (ordinary boy) to fill in the environment using the models that he provides.

I agree regarding the comic relief status. Gimli can't be everywhere...

Gandalf calls her a "wise-woman" (altogether now "There are two things you should know about the wise woman... one .. she is wise..")

Meaning? (Am I slow on the uptake?)

[Mithalwen]

Soory ... that was one for fans of "The Black Adder" or rather "Blackadder the Second" when Edmund seeks out the wise woman and receive the following advice from the man who gives directions:

Old Man : "There are 2 things you should klnow about the wise woman..one, she is wise, two .."

Edmund (in a hurry) "She's a woman I suppose?"

Old Man "Oh you know her then?" Sorry .....


Actually I think Bergil makes it clear that most have gone... but I think it is a good touch that Tolkien uses Ioreth rather than a random woman to be voice in crowd.

BTW .. Gimli as comic relief, is a bit of a film invention. I Master of Middle Earth, Paul Kocher says he only makes one joke in the whole book ... when he meets the Hobbits at Isengard ..

But after all that ... the short answer is "Good points"