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#1 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 80
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Burning Bodies like the heathen kings
There was a line like that in the movie that Denethor said that he would burn his and Faramir's bodies like the heathen kings. I could not find an exact line like that in the Return of the King except for a line where Gandalf says something to the fact that the heathen kings chose when their children died like what Denethor was about to do to Faramir. Is the first reference relating to the Romans who burned the bodies of their dead and others. Or if Professor Tolkien was not thinking that way but closer to the passage that I found in the book relating to how some of the Judean kings (after they fell away from Yahweh) sacrificed their children to idols, sometimes burning them alive. As what happened during the reign of King Ahaz.
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#2 |
A Mere Boggart
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: under the bed
Posts: 4,737
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As this is also in the books, I wonder if it might possibly stem from Tolkien's own beliefs on burial? Cremation in the modern sense is still resisted by many in the UK who hold strong Christian, particularly Catholic faith; historically at the end of the Victorian era it was seen as very peculiar indeed to opt for a cremation. I think this has something to do with the body needing to be 'intact' at the Day of Judgement.
Cremation was also at one time commonly used among the pre-Christian culture in the British Isles, particularly in the centuries leading up to the Roman occupation. Maybe Tolkien was making reference to cremation being of an older culture in light of this. Perhaps...though I've never read anything to confirm Tolkien's own views on the 'proper' conduct for a burial rite...
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#3 |
Shadow of the Past
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Minas Mor-go
Posts: 1,007
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What sort of Middle-earth heathen kings does Denethor speak of? Did these people cremate all their dead, or just the kings? What sort of pre-religion did these people follow? How is it different from Gondorian beliefs in Denethor's time? What were his religious beliefs? This has really got me thinking about the history of Gondor before the Numenoreans.
It is an interesting topic. I don't know if the Romans cremated their dead or not, but I do know that sacrifices to these heathen gods and idols were usually burned. In the Odyssey, sacrifices to the gods, usually consisting of the thighbones and tongues of animals, are burned over fires. Perhaps the smoke rising to the heavens gave thanks to the gods? |
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#4 |
Desultory Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat.....
Posts: 7,779
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It is Gandalf in the chapter, The Pyre of Denethor from The Return of the King who speaks of heathen kings. And he defines them as being those under the Domination of the Dark Lord who slew themselves in pride and despair along with their kin.
--- After Gandalf has rescued Faramir from the mound where he was to burn, Denethor pleads that his son not be taken from him. Gandalf directs Denethor to let his son be taken to the houses of Healing while he (Denethor) should go out to the battle that rages in his city. ‘He will not wake again,’ said Denethor. ‘Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?’ ‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf, ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’
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Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside. |
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#5 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Muddy-earth
Posts: 1,297
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It is an historical fact, that in some cultures, the wife and even servents were burned along with the deceased, and in real terms, it wasnt that long ago.
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#6 | |
Illustrious Ulair
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties
Posts: 4,240
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Denethor does speak a similar line in the book:
Quote:
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