Burning Bodies like the heathen kings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Dûrbelethwen · 07-28-2005, 12:59 PM

There was a line like that in the movie that Denethor said that he would burn his and Faramir's bodies like the heathen kings. I could not find an exact line like that in the Return of the King except for a line where Gandalf says something to the fact that the heathen kings chose when their children died like what Denethor was about to do to Faramir. Is the first reference relating to the Romans who burned the bodies of their dead and others. Or if Professor Tolkien was not thinking that way but closer to the passage that I found in the book relating to how some of the Judean kings (after they fell away from Yahweh) sacrificed their children to idols, sometimes burning them alive. As what happened during the reign of King Ahaz.

Lalwendë · 07-28-2005, 03:53 PM

As this is also in the books, I wonder if it might possibly stem from Tolkien's own beliefs on burial? Cremation in the modern sense is still resisted by many in the UK who hold strong Christian, particularly Catholic faith; historically at the end of the Victorian era it was seen as very peculiar indeed to opt for a cremation. I think this has something to do with the body needing to be 'intact' at the Day of Judgement.

Cremation was also at one time commonly used among the pre-Christian culture in the British Isles, particularly in the centuries leading up to the Roman occupation. Maybe Tolkien was making reference to cremation being of an older culture in light of this. Perhaps...though I've never read anything to confirm Tolkien's own views on the 'proper' conduct for a burial rite...

Alcarillo · 07-28-2005, 06:50 PM

What sort of Middle-earth heathen kings does Denethor speak of? Did these people cremate all their dead, or just the kings? What sort of pre-religion did these people follow? How is it different from Gondorian beliefs in Denethor's time? What were his religious beliefs? This has really got me thinking about the history of Gondor before the Numenoreans.

It is an interesting topic. I don't know if the Romans cremated their dead or not, but I do know that sacrifices to these heathen gods and idols were usually burned. In the Odyssey, sacrifices to the gods, usually consisting of the thighbones and tongues of animals, are burned over fires. Perhaps the smoke rising to the heavens gave thanks to the gods?

piosenniel · 07-29-2005, 01:59 AM

It is Gandalf in the chapter, The Pyre of Denethor from The Return of the King who speaks of heathen kings. And he defines them as being those under the Domination of the Dark Lord who slew themselves in pride and despair along with their kin.

---

After Gandalf has rescued Faramir from the mound where he was to burn, Denethor pleads that his son not be taken from him. Gandalf directs Denethor to let his son be taken to the houses of Healing while he (Denethor) should go out to the battle that rages in his city.

‘He will not wake again,’ said Denethor. ‘Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?’

‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf, ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’

narfforc · 07-29-2005, 02:31 AM

It is an historical fact, that in some cultures, the wife and even servents were burned along with the deceased, and in real terms, it wasnt that long ago.

davem · 07-29-2005, 07:36 AM

Denethor does speak a similar line in the book:

Quote:

"Why? Why do the fools fly?" said Denethor. "Better to burn sooner than late, for burn we must. Go back to your bonfire! And I? I will go now to my pyre. To my pyre! No tomb for Denethor and Faramir. No tomb! No long slow sleep of death embalmed. We will burn like heathen kings before ever a ship sailed hither from the West. The West has failed. Go back and burn!"
The Return of the King: "The Siege of Gondor," p. 98-99

07-28-2005, 12:59 PM	#1
Dûrbelethwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 80	Burning Bodies like the heathen kings There was a line like that in the movie that Denethor said that he would burn his and Faramir's bodies like the heathen kings. I could not find an exact line like that in the Return of the King except for a line where Gandalf says something to the fact that the heathen kings chose when their children died like what Denethor was about to do to Faramir. Is the first reference relating to the Romans who burned the bodies of their dead and others. Or if Professor Tolkien was not thinking that way but closer to the passage that I found in the book relating to how some of the Judean kings (after they fell away from Yahweh) sacrificed their children to idols, sometimes burning them alive. As what happened during the reign of King Ahaz.

07-28-2005, 03:53 PM	#2
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	As this is also in the books, I wonder if it might possibly stem from Tolkien's own beliefs on burial? Cremation in the modern sense is still resisted by many in the UK who hold strong Christian, particularly Catholic faith; historically at the end of the Victorian era it was seen as very peculiar indeed to opt for a cremation. I think this has something to do with the body needing to be 'intact' at the Day of Judgement. Cremation was also at one time commonly used among the pre-Christian culture in the British Isles, particularly in the centuries leading up to the Roman occupation. Maybe Tolkien was making reference to cremation being of an older culture in light of this. Perhaps...though I've never read anything to confirm Tolkien's own views on the 'proper' conduct for a burial rite... __________________ Gordon's alive!

07-29-2005, 01:59 AM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	It is Gandalf in the chapter, The Pyre of Denethor from The Return of the King who speaks of heathen kings. And he defines them as being those under the Domination of the Dark Lord who slew themselves in pride and despair along with their kin. --- After Gandalf has rescued Faramir from the mound where he was to burn, Denethor pleads that his son not be taken from him. Gandalf directs Denethor to let his son be taken to the houses of Healing while he (Denethor) should go out to the battle that rages in his city. ‘He will not wake again,’ said Denethor. ‘Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?’ ‘Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,’ answered Gandalf, ‘And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.’ __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-28-2005, 06:50 PM	#3
Alcarillo Shadow of the Past Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Minas Mor-go Posts: 1,007	What sort of Middle-earth heathen kings does Denethor speak of? Did these people cremate all their dead, or just the kings? What sort of pre-religion did these people follow? How is it different from Gondorian beliefs in Denethor's time? What were his religious beliefs? This has really got me thinking about the history of Gondor before the Numenoreans. It is an interesting topic. I don't know if the Romans cremated their dead or not, but I do know that sacrifices to these heathen gods and idols were usually burned. In the Odyssey, sacrifices to the gods, usually consisting of the thighbones and tongues of animals, are burned over fires. Perhaps the smoke rising to the heavens gave thanks to the gods?

07-29-2005, 02:31 AM	#5
narfforc Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Muddy-earth Posts: 1,297	It is an historical fact, that in some cultures, the wife and even servents were burned along with the deceased, and in real terms, it wasnt that long ago.