Tolkien and the 'other' N-word ;) - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Angry Hill Troll · 10-21-2005, 10:07 PM

A few years ago, near where I live, there was a rather amusing political flap. Someone, in a speech or interview, used the word "niggard". Apparently one of the people listening, not recognizing the word or knowing its meaning, assumed the speaker had used a different N-word (a racial epithet which I shall not repeat here

). Anyway, this made the local media and became a big flap before someone provided a definition of what the word meant (a miser).

Well, to my point, I had known what the word meant previous to this "incident", having learned it from Tolkien!

Quote:

'No niggard are you, Éomer,' said Aragorn, 'to give thus to Gondor the fairest thing in your realm.'

ROTK VI, 6

(I do remember doing a bit of a double-take when I first read the book and read that line, then figuring out the meaning from the context, being too lazy to look it up in a dictionary

)

Does anyone have any words they learned from Tolkien? It seems actually quite a good and fun way to build up one's vocabulary.

Gothmog · 10-22-2005, 04:15 AM

Me, being from Sweden, had a hard time reading LotR in english for the first time. I was maybe around 12 years or something. Luckily, my father had used the same books when studying english at the university many years ago, so the most uncommon words were underlined and translated. Though I wouldn't made it through if I hadn't read them in swedish first. I also tried Silm in english back then, but gave up. Now I try to read only in english.

I learned a lot of words from Tolkien. I was too lazy to look up some words too, so I guessed out of the context. This gave me an approximate translation but not always the correct. A lot of the words I learned adjectives because of the wonderful descriptions of places and people featured in LotR.

One word that I remember is Alas. I thought it sounded real cool...

I don't recommend LotR to first time english readers though. The language isn't that easy and some words used can hardly be find in my dictionary...

And I didn't know the word niggard until today

Wish one could be better at english...

Kath · 10-22-2005, 09:48 AM

Oh wow probably hundreds! I read the books when I was about 8 and apparently I've had a pretty large vocabulary ever since so that's probably where all the new words came from. The writing and descriptions of people and places are just so beautiful, and its always easier to learn words that way, when you like them and want to know them.

I can't think of any particular words I learnt from reading the books though, I think it was more words in terms of context, if that makes any sense.

Cailín · 10-22-2005, 10:08 AM

Well, I learned a lot of Dutch words from the translation when my father read it to me as a little girl.

I'm currently reading the English version of Lord of the Rings for the very first time, but have not yet stumbled upon words I didn't know or could not figure out from the context. Had I read it before I was a full time Ye Olde English student, this would have been rather different - as Gothmog says, tis not easy reading Tolkien if you're not a native speaker.

When the movies first came out, I learned many words as well. I can remember wield (as in: 'we cannot wield it'), especially. I had no idea what it meant and for years have spelled it as wheeled, to the great amusement of all people more knowledgeable than me.

Angry Hill Troll · 10-22-2005, 10:26 AM

Those of you non-native speakers who have struggled through the books in English most definitely have my admiration! A lot of the vocabulary includes rather archaic words not commonly used or even understood today (as the 'niggard' example illustrates). I can imagine that it would be quite difficult for a non-native speaker to read, or for that matter, to do a good translation into another language.

Celebuial · 10-22-2005, 10:34 AM

Well I'm English and I read the books when I was about 12/13 and I still finished reading with a gargantuan list of new words...

Like 'bivouac'-I had never come across the word untill LotR.

I'm quite sure I had no idea what distance was represented by a furlong before either.

Hmmm... there's probably hundreds but I can't think of any more examples right now.

Earendilyon · 10-23-2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angry Hill Troll

It seems actually quite a good and fun way to build up one's vocabulary.

If you want to learn new, archaic, obscure or obsolete words, you should read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson!

You'll learn zillions of new words that way

(Or forget them right away after looking in the dictionary, of course

)

Celebuial · 10-23-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earendilyon

If you want to learn new, archaic, obscure or obsolete words, you should read The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson!

Yes that is a great way to learn new words but you have to be strong... I found it very hard to make it through the first half of the first book: it was just a re-shuffling of Tolkien. After a while though it did turn into his own story-which is very good.

I'm not sure that the words I learned where quite as interesting as the ones I learned from Tolkien though. I mean they were in my dictionary whereas quite a lot of the Tolkien ones where impossible(well really hard) to find.

Fordim Hedgethistle · 10-23-2005, 09:21 AM

Well, before Tolkien I didn't know what either a barrow or a downs was...

Kath · 10-23-2005, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Well, before Tolkien I didn't know what either a barrow or a downs was...

Living where I do, only a few miles away from both a barrow and a downs I was aware of those words

We visited them a few years back, after I'd read the books, and it was great fun imagining the Wights and Bombadil and the poor little Hobbits.

Lalwendë · 10-23-2005, 02:06 PM

The strange thing for me when reading Tolkien for the first time was how many of the odd words I was entirely familiar with. I had grandparents who spoke dialect, not mere accent, but a true dialect with its own vocabulary, and Tolkien makes extensive use of dialect in his work. He used the West Midlands dialect, but it's not that far removed from the dialect of where I grew up. I laughed when Tolkien used the word 'Attercop' because knew exactly what that meant, though I tended to pronounce it attercrop. I also knew exactly who a gaffer was and whereabouts yonder might be found.

Earendilyon · 10-23-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celebuial

Yes that is a great way to learn new words but you have to be strong... I found it very hard to make it through the first half of the first book: it was just a re-shuffling of Tolkien. After a while though it did turn into his own story-which is very good.

I'm not sure that the words I learned where quite as interesting as the ones I learned from Tolkien though. I mean they were in my dictionary whereas quite a lot of the Tolkien ones where impossible(well really hard) to find.

I never considered the Chronicles a reshuffling of Tolkien, not even the 1st half of the 1st book. Everyone his/her own opinion, of course

IMHO, the rare and weird words SRD strews around in his books are les 'usable' in everyday life, I think. In my impression, Tolkien uses archaic synonyms of more 'regular' words than does SRD.
Another impression I sometimes get when reading the Chronicles is, that SRD put in those words to just show he knows his OED, to show how erudite he is. Tolkiens rare and obsolete words fit better in the overall feel and style of the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

The strange thing for me when reading Tolkien for the first time was how many of the odd words I was entirely familiar with. I had grandparents who spoke dialect, not mere accent, but a true dialect with its own vocabulary, and Tolkien makes extensive use of dialect in his work. He used the West Midlands dialect, but it's not that far removed from the dialect of where I grew up.

The impression I get from dialects (at least here in the Netherlands) is the fact that they tend to keep words that have become archaic or obsolete in the "official" language. Dialects seem to preserve older forms more likely than the standard language of a country. (Which may be the cause of dialects being considered backwards or even stupid.)

Cailín · 10-23-2005, 02:56 PM

It doesn't have much to do with words I am actually learning, but Elvish resembles Irish and Welsh so closely sometimes, I am becoming more and more frustrated I cannot read it.

I always thought Elvish mostly resembled Finnish and Tolkien did not appreciate Celtic languages, but I guess I was wrong.

Alcarillo · 10-23-2005, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cailín

I always thought Elvish mostly resembled Finnish and Tolkien did not appreciate Celtic languages, but I guess I was wrong.

Not entirely wrong, Cailín. Sindarin is the language that sounds like Welsh, and Quenya is the language that sounds like Finnish. They're both beautiful languages.

Before I read Tolkien I didn't know what argent, or sable, or chalcedony meant, and some words I hadn't even heard of before. Bilbo's song in Many Meetings had some wonderful words, like habergeon and carcanet and flammifer, great vocabulary-filling words that sound old and noble. I always thought that Tolkien's poetry included some of his loveliest language.

10-22-2005, 04:15 AM	#2
Gothmog Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Where I lay my head is home Posts: 421	Me, being from Sweden, had a hard time reading LotR in english for the first time. I was maybe around 12 years or something. Luckily, my father had used the same books when studying english at the university many years ago, so the most uncommon words were underlined and translated. Though I wouldn't made it through if I hadn't read them in swedish first. I also tried Silm in english back then, but gave up. Now I try to read only in english. I learned a lot of words from Tolkien. I was too lazy to look up some words too, so I guessed out of the context. This gave me an approximate translation but not always the correct. A lot of the words I learned adjectives because of the wonderful descriptions of places and people featured in LotR. One word that I remember is Alas. I thought it sounded real cool... I don't recommend LotR to first time english readers though. The language isn't that easy and some words used can hardly be find in my dictionary... And I didn't know the word niggard until today Wish one could be better at english... __________________ Three switched witches watch three Swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watch which Swatch watch switch? He who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom ~Lurker...

10-22-2005, 09:48 AM	#3
Kath Everlasting Whiteness Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Perusing the laminated book of dreams Posts: 4,533	Oh wow probably hundreds! I read the books when I was about 8 and apparently I've had a pretty large vocabulary ever since so that's probably where all the new words came from. The writing and descriptions of people and places are just so beautiful, and its always easier to learn words that way, when you like them and want to know them. I can't think of any particular words I learnt from reading the books though, I think it was more words in terms of context, if that makes any sense. __________________ “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

10-22-2005, 10:34 AM	#6
Celebuial Wight Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cardiff during term time/Leicester in the holl's Posts: 129	Well I'm English and I read the books when I was about 12/13 and I still finished reading with a gargantuan list of new words... Like 'bivouac'-I had never come across the word untill LotR. I'm quite sure I had no idea what distance was represented by a furlong before either. Hmmm... there's probably hundreds but I can't think of any more examples right now. __________________ Ú cilith ‘war. Ú men ‘war. Boe min mebi. Boe min bango.

10-23-2005, 09:21 AM	#9
Fordim Hedgethistle Gibbering Gibbet Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Beyond cloud nine Posts: 1,844	Well, before Tolkien I didn't know what either a barrow or a downs was... __________________ Scribbling scrabbling.

10-23-2005, 02:06 PM	#11
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	The strange thing for me when reading Tolkien for the first time was how many of the odd words I was entirely familiar with. I had grandparents who spoke dialect, not mere accent, but a true dialect with its own vocabulary, and Tolkien makes extensive use of dialect in his work. He used the West Midlands dialect, but it's not that far removed from the dialect of where I grew up. I laughed when Tolkien used the word 'Attercop' because knew exactly what that meant, though I tended to pronounce it attercrop. I also knew exactly who a gaffer was and whereabouts yonder might be found. __________________ Gordon's alive!

10-22-2005, 10:08 AM	#4
Cailín Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lurking in the shadows. Posts: 711	Well, I learned a lot of Dutch words from the translation when my father read it to me as a little girl. I'm currently reading the English version of Lord of the Rings for the very first time, but have not yet stumbled upon words I didn't know or could not figure out from the context. Had I read it before I was a full time Ye Olde English student, this would have been rather different - as Gothmog says, tis not easy reading Tolkien if you're not a native speaker. When the movies first came out, I learned many words as well. I can remember wield (as in: 'we cannot wield it'), especially. I had no idea what it meant and for years have spelled it as wheeled, to the great amusement of all people more knowledgeable than me.

10-22-2005, 10:26 AM	#5
Angry Hill Troll Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Ephel Duath Posts: 115	Those of you non-native speakers who have struggled through the books in English most definitely have my admiration! A lot of the vocabulary includes rather archaic words not commonly used or even understood today (as the 'niggard' example illustrates). I can imagine that it would be quite difficult for a non-native speaker to read, or for that matter, to do a good translation into another language.

10-23-2005, 02:56 PM	#13
Cailín Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lurking in the shadows. Posts: 711	It doesn't have much to do with words I am actually learning, but Elvish resembles Irish and Welsh so closely sometimes, I am becoming more and more frustrated I cannot read it. I always thought Elvish mostly resembled Finnish and Tolkien did not appreciate Celtic languages, but I guess I was wrong.