Symbolic Representations in The Lord of the Rings - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Glirdan · 12-17-2005, 09:16 AM

As the title said, I'm very interested in know how many symbolic representations Tolkien used in The Lord of the Rings.

What brought this sudden bought of curiosity? Why, "The Chroncicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" is the cause of the question (which I will get to in a few minutes). Last night, at the end of my Christmas Concert at school, two people who are in the band with me were talking about how Narnia is a symbollic representation (somewhat) of the Bible. I'm sure some of you already knew this, but I'm posting this to explain to others and to help me get to the point. The Lion is a symbollic representation of Jesus Christ and The Witch (I'm sure this one is pretty obvious) is a symbol of the Devil. Now you are still probably saying to yourself "What has Narnia got to do with this?" right? Well, I was thinking earlier "I know there are a few symbollic represtations in 'The Lord of the Rings' but exactly what?"

Now that is my main question but another thought occured to me as well. We all know that Eru (this is argued) is (most likely) a representation of God where as Melkor is the Devil, yes? Well, seeing as Melkor and Eru don't really have (in the case of Eru, this is not true, but Eru isn't mentioned a whole lot in "The Lord of the Rings") a big role in The Lord of the Rings. Now, is it possible that Tolkien decided to use Gandalf and Sauron to represent them?

What are your thoughts? Are there any other symollic representations that Toliken used? If there are any threads where this topic was discussed, please feel free to post the link.

Laitoste · 12-17-2005, 07:00 PM

It depends on what you mean by symbolism. Naturally, you have items that are meaningful and symbolic for characters, such as Anduril for Aragorn, but if you want to read in any more than that, you are treading dangerously close to allegory. And, as we all know, Tolkien "cordially dislike(s) allegory in all its manifestations."

On the other hand, some elements are strikingly similar to stories/myths in our world. It is difficult to NOT see these elements (like the similarity of Eru to God) while reading. However, most of the time, Tolkien's stories do accomplish "applicability."

Now, to answer your question, Glirdan, it would be difficult to see Gandalf as God. Perhaps he could be seen as a god-like figure, or a Christ-figure, as has been done before, but he does not have enough of God's qualities to be any sort of representation. However, to a certain extent, he does represent Eru in Middle-Earth. It would probably be more accurate to say he represents the Valar. If you so wish, you could see this as a more symbolic representation, but contextually, he really is a representative of the Valar and Eru.

Sauron, on the other hand, may represent Morgoth on a symbolic level, but not on a literal level. Morgoth did not elect Sauron to go to Middle-Earth and wreck havoc on Morgoth's behalf. Personally, I don't know enough about the Devil to proclaim Sauron's resemblance. I don't even know if I believe there is an evil entity known as the Devil yet. Anyway, if you wanted to read Sauron as a symbolic representation of Morgoth, it wouldn't be much of a stretch, but you may lose something in the reading. Such is the problem with allegory and symbolism. You begin to read everything as representing something else, and forget to appreciate the story for simply existing.

the guy who be short · 12-18-2005, 09:12 AM

Good and evil doesn't necessarily mean God and Satan.

If Tolkien were to be compared to our world, I'd say I see Gandalf as an angel and Sauron as a Demon. I don't think that's what Tolkien meant for us to see in the characters though - Gandalf and Sauron, to me, are unique to Middle Earth. The underlying theme of Good vs. Evil is what links ME to our world. That could be said to be symbolic.

Oroaranion · 12-18-2005, 10:22 AM

Of course, these three posts before me all assume that Tolkein's so called symbolism is based on the Bible. Obviously there is the theme of Good vs Evil, and triumph. The thing with these books is that they are timeless, they could represent any time, including now, even though Tolkien may not have foreseen it. We have George Bush invading Iraq (I leave it to you to decide who is teh evil in this example, I go with Bush), the Western Nations fighting agaisnt terrorism, etc.

On a different note, I am not sure how many of you may be accquainted with the classical composer Wagner's Rheingold. It represents Nordic mythology, about a battle of gods and men for a gold ring that grants the wearer huge amounts of power, enough to rule the world, and usurp the gods. Any of this sound familiar?

Roa_Aoife · 12-18-2005, 02:54 PM

Yes, the Eru/God debate is quickly becoming a Morgoth/Satan debate and a Ainur/Angels debate, and so on, but I'm not so sure if this is symbolism, or Tolkien presenting an alternate history of the world we already live in.

Other Christian symbols I've heard are Aragorn= Christ (traveling through the paths of Death to emerge King of all Men) and Frodo= Christ (bearing the sin of the world to be destroyed.)

Themes presented have been the transition from suffering to hope, weakness overcoming mightiness, and the movement of unseen forces.

My personal opinion though, is that symbolism is all well and good, but over-analyzing anything tends to remove some of the wonder. Maybe we should just let Tom Bombadil be Tom Bombadil, and Frodo be Frodo, and Eru be Eru (whatever conections I may draw), and just enjoy the story.

12-18-2005, 04:20 PM

I think that Oroaranion makes a valid point (well, actually 2 valid points). Tolkiens stories are about Good v Evil and all the triumph, tragedy and difficulty involved in life. A lot of writers and stories use these basic themes. I’m sure there are a lot of similarities between some of Tolkiens writing and Shakespeares writing. Could Turin be compared with Macbeth? I’ve never read any of The Chronicles of Narnia (yet!), but I suspect they also delve into these topics and themes.
From what I know of ‘Das Rheingeld’ there seem to be a few similarities with The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, I don’t know as much as I’d like to about Wagner’s masterpiece.

For me, I never really picked up on the religious symbolism that people are talking about. I was more interested in the strong anti-war symbolism (the battle of unnumbered tears, the dead marshes, etc.) and the symbolism used to show his feelings about nature against industrialisation. The way he describes the machinery and fires of Sauron and Saruman and their destruction of nature compared against Gandalf and Tom Bombadil, who are more closely in tune with nature. At some crucial points in the story nature and the natural world are very important in the eventual triumph of the ‘good guys’; the assistance received from Treebeard (and the Ents and Huorns) and from the eagles.

12-17-2005, 09:16 AM	#1
Glirdan Energetic Essence Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Where Lark Nor Eagle Ever Flew Posts: 3,285	Symbolic Representations in The Lord of the Rings As the title said, I'm very interested in know how many symbolic representations Tolkien used in The Lord of the Rings. What brought this sudden bought of curiosity? Why, "The Chroncicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe" is the cause of the question (which I will get to in a few minutes). Last night, at the end of my Christmas Concert at school, two people who are in the band with me were talking about how Narnia is a symbollic representation (somewhat) of the Bible. I'm sure some of you already knew this, but I'm posting this to explain to others and to help me get to the point. The Lion is a symbollic representation of Jesus Christ and The Witch (I'm sure this one is pretty obvious) is a symbol of the Devil. Now you are still probably saying to yourself "What has Narnia got to do with this?" right? Well, I was thinking earlier "I know there are a few symbollic represtations in 'The Lord of the Rings' but exactly what?" Now that is my main question but another thought occured to me as well. We all know that Eru (this is argued) is (most likely) a representation of God where as Melkor is the Devil, yes? Well, seeing as Melkor and Eru don't really have (in the case of Eru, this is not true, but Eru isn't mentioned a whole lot in "The Lord of the Rings") a big role in The Lord of the Rings. Now, is it possible that Tolkien decided to use Gandalf and Sauron to represent them? What are your thoughts? Are there any other symollic representations that Toliken used? If there are any threads where this topic was discussed, please feel free to post the link. __________________ *I'm going to buy you a kitty, I'm going to let you fall in love with the kitty, and one cold, winter night, I'm going to steal into your house and punch you in the face!* Fenris Wolf

12-17-2005, 07:00 PM	#2
Laitoste Wight Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Behind the hills Posts: 164	It depends on what you mean by symbolism. Naturally, you have items that are meaningful and symbolic for characters, such as Anduril for Aragorn, but if you want to read in any more than that, you are treading dangerously close to allegory. And, as we all know, Tolkien "cordially dislike(s) allegory in all its manifestations." On the other hand, some elements are strikingly similar to stories/myths in our world. It is difficult to NOT see these elements (like the similarity of Eru to God) while reading. However, most of the time, Tolkien's stories do accomplish "applicability." Now, to answer your question, Glirdan, it would be difficult to see Gandalf as God. Perhaps he could be seen as a god-like figure, or a Christ-figure, as has been done before, but he does not have enough of God's qualities to be any sort of representation. However, to a certain extent, he does represent Eru in Middle-Earth. It would probably be more accurate to say he represents the Valar. If you so wish, you could see this as a more symbolic representation, but contextually, he really is a representative of the Valar and Eru. Sauron, on the other hand, may represent Morgoth on a symbolic level, but not on a literal level. Morgoth did not elect Sauron to go to Middle-Earth and wreck havoc on Morgoth's behalf. Personally, I don't know enough about the Devil to proclaim Sauron's resemblance. I don't even know if I believe there is an evil entity known as the Devil yet. Anyway, if you wanted to read Sauron as a symbolic representation of Morgoth, it wouldn't be much of a stretch, but you may lose something in the reading. Such is the problem with allegory and symbolism. You begin to read everything as representing something else, and forget to appreciate the story for simply existing. __________________ "If we're still alive in the morning, we'll know that we're not dead."~South Park

12-18-2005, 10:22 AM	#4
Oroaranion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Dol Amroth Posts: 94	Of course, these three posts before me all assume that Tolkein's so called symbolism is based on the Bible. Obviously there is the theme of Good vs Evil, and triumph. The thing with these books is that they are timeless, they could represent any time, including now, even though Tolkien may not have foreseen it. We have George Bush invading Iraq (I leave it to you to decide who is teh evil in this example, I go with Bush), the Western Nations fighting agaisnt terrorism, etc. On a different note, I am not sure how many of you may be accquainted with the classical composer Wagner's Rheingold. It represents Nordic mythology, about a battle of gods and men for a gold ring that grants the wearer huge amounts of power, enough to rule the world, and usurp the gods. Any of this sound familiar? __________________ I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-18-2005, 02:54 PM	#5
Roa_Aoife Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Someday, I'll rule all of it. Posts: 1,696	Yes, the Eru/God debate is quickly becoming a Morgoth/Satan debate and a Ainur/Angels debate, and so on, but I'm not so sure if this is symbolism, or Tolkien presenting an alternate history of the world we already live in. Other Christian symbols I've heard are Aragorn= Christ (traveling through the paths of Death to emerge King of all Men) and Frodo= Christ (bearing the sin of the world to be destroyed.) Themes presented have been the transition from suffering to hope, weakness overcoming mightiness, and the movement of unseen forces. My personal opinion though, is that symbolism is all well and good, but over-analyzing anything tends to remove some of the wonder. Maybe we should just let Tom Bombadil be Tom Bombadil, and Frodo be Frodo, and Eru be Eru (whatever conections I may draw), and just enjoy the story. __________________ We can't all be Roas* when it comes to analysing...* -Lommy I didn't say you're evil, Roa, I said you're exasperating. -Nerwen

12-18-2005, 09:12 AM	#3
the guy who be short Shadowed Prince Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Thulcandra Posts: 2,343	Good and evil doesn't necessarily mean God and Satan. If Tolkien were to be compared to our world, I'd say I see Gandalf as an angel and Sauron as a Demon. I don't think that's what Tolkien meant for us to see in the characters though - Gandalf and Sauron, to me, are unique to Middle Earth. The underlying theme of Good vs. Evil is what links ME to our world. That could be said to be symbolic.

12-18-2005, 04:20 PM	#6
Thurin Adanedhel Guest Posts: n/a	I think that Oroaranion makes a valid point (well, actually 2 valid points). Tolkiens stories are about Good v Evil and all the triumph, tragedy and difficulty involved in life. A lot of writers and stories use these basic themes. I’m sure there are a lot of similarities between some of Tolkiens writing and Shakespeares writing. Could Turin be compared with Macbeth? I’ve never read any of The Chronicles of Narnia (yet!), but I suspect they also delve into these topics and themes. From what I know of ‘Das Rheingeld’ there seem to be a few similarities with The Lord of the Rings. Unfortunately, I don’t know as much as I’d like to about Wagner’s masterpiece. For me, I never really picked up on the religious symbolism that people are talking about. I was more interested in the strong anti-war symbolism (the battle of unnumbered tears, the dead marshes, etc.) and the symbolism used to show his feelings about nature against industrialisation. The way he describes the machinery and fires of Sauron and Saruman and their destruction of nature compared against Gandalf and Tom Bombadil, who are more closely in tune with nature. At some crucial points in the story nature and the natural world are very important in the eventual triumph of the ‘good guys’; the assistance received from Treebeard (and the Ents and Huorns) and from the eagles.