The Hobbit - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[Estelyn Telcontar]

After the comforts of Rivendell, travelling on seems bleak to the Dwarves, Gandalf and Bilbo. The weather is uncomfortable, they feel the cold, and even the silence takes on personality: “...seemed to dislike being broken.” The thunderstorm is personified in the stone giants, another of those races that are difficult to place in the overall Legendarium.

Then comes a typical situation, whether in old fairytales or modern horror movies – the shelter they find turns into danger. Another new race is introduced to the readers: goblins! They take Bilbo and the dwarves captive, as well as their ponies. The song they sing is strongly onomatopoetic, with lots of rhyming – fun to read aloud!

The passage describing the goblins says a lot about Tolkien and his opinion on modern inventions and technology! A lot of what is said ties into the modern world. I can’t help but wonder how the goblins remember the swords Glamdring and Orcrist; is there some sort of collective memory or are they so long-lived that they would actually have experienced those weapons previously?

Gandalf saves the day, at least at first; then they are recaptured. The chapter ends with Bilbo’s blackout, and since we are seeing things from his point of view, we have to wait for him to wake up in the next chapter before we know what happens.

Do you enjoy this chapter? Can you reconcile the goblins with the orcs as we see them later in LotR? What impresses you most?

[Aiwendil]

This second adventure for Bilbo and the Dwarves is altogether more serious than their first. If the trolls perhaps come across as overgrown Cockney types, the goblins seem to be much more sinister and "realistic" villains.

I can’t help but wonder how the goblins remember the swords Glamdring and Orcrist; is there some sort of collective memory or are they so long-lived that they would actually have experienced those weapons previously?

This is an interesting question. If Orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then (as others have suggested elsewhere) it seems reasonable to suppose that they are immortal. On the other hand, there is a way in which immortality simply doesn't seem to fit with their portrayal. But I imagine that Glamdring and Orcrist were quite famous among goblins; it doesn't seem any stranger that the Great Goblin would recognize them than that Legolas or Aragorn would recognize a Balrog.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is an interesting question. If Orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then (as others have suggested elsewhere) it seems reasonable to suppose that they are immortal. On the other hand, there is a way in which immortality simply doesn't seem to fit with their portrayal. But I imagine that Glamdring and Orcrist were quite famous among goblins; it doesn't seem any stranger that the Great Goblin would recognize them than that Legolas or Aragorn would recognize a Balrog.

Perhaps....

Perhaps not.

Actually, it's jumping ahead to a later chapter, but a tidbit of information relating to Bolg is handy here. He's the only ork for whom a lifespan is suggested.

We know that he had do have been born during or before 2799- the year his father Azog was slain in the Battle of Nanduhirion. If we assume that Orks, being the evil creatures they are, would have killed him- or at least thwarted his chances of succeeding Azog, then we can probably add twenty years, if not more, to his age. Let's give him a birth year of 2780.

Bolg dies in 2941, the year in which The Hobbit takes place. This gives us a definite lifestpan of 142 years, and- as I said- at least a generation's worth of time to be relatively mature. Factoring into account the fact that Bolg seems to have not yet been in his old age, but rather in his prime, a lifespan of over 200 years seems perfectly reasonable for an Ork.

I'll leave any further observations about the chapter till another day (or night), and I'll leave the implications of the Orkish lifespan for the other brains here to ponder.

[Raynor]

Another interesting point to discuss would be the stone giants: if they really exist (and most of the party members reffer to them seriously, Gandalf intents to bring one along to shut the orc gate, etc) why are they so elusive everywhere else? Are they ents? Where they present at Caradhras when the fellowship was stopped in its way?

[mormegil]

Can you reconcile the goblins with the orcs as we see them later in LotR?

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing. There just seems to be a difference between the manner in which most races are portrayed. Tolkien does a good job at explaining that they are nasty creatures but they seem more like creatures we would see on the movie Gremlins than a serious evil, twisted creature.

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the "goblins" in the Hobbit are a smaller form of mountain-orc. There is precedent for racial variety among orcs in the LotR canon. It is also likely that they have not been under the direct thumb of Sauron for some time, and those they capture are likely to have traditions of song. Since Melkor modeled the orcs after the elves, (there is speculation that he actually twisted the Avari into orcs) it is not unreasonable to suppose them capable of twisting the joyful songs of the Children of Iluvatar and Aule into their own tunes. Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...