LotR2-TTT-Seq01 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 02-08-2006, 03:52 PM

History does not start when we first become aware of time…

The second movie in PJ's trilogy begins, not with a whimper, but a bang.

We start with a sunrise over the Misty Mountains. PJ leads out with his strengths. Is this Alaska? New Zealand? In a moment or two we know that it’s Middle Earth, but you never think that it’s some CG world. We follow the ridgeline, like some Google Middle Earth tour, then it’s the X-ray vision tour as we see what is happening inside these backbones of stone. Frodo’s voice gives a clue, but is this new or déjà vu? Think that I remember Gandalf saying those words in FotR, but this is TTT.

Suddenly we’re back on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, and we see Gandalf battle the Balrog once again from a slightly different camera angle. But this time, instead of following the Eight, we follow the One. Gandalf once again falls after the smoking Balrog. He first catches up with Glamdring, and that’s when I started thinking that he didn’t fall so much as continue after his foe.

“Retreat, hell, we’re just fighting in a different direction!”**

Gandalf hews at the Balrog, who ever clutches at the Guided Grey Missile. The hole in which they fall is small, limiting the lateral movement of Balrog, which surely is a good thing for Gandalf. Still, the Balrog gets in a shot for the many sword strokes dealt by Gandalf.

Did you see the wings, by the by? Well, that should put that question to rest, as PJ is obviously the definitive source.

Finally, the entangled foes enter a larger cavern, then find the bottom in the icy lake at the very foundations of the world. I liked the way the flames of the Balrog light the cavern briefly as they fall towards the lake. The distant point of view saddened the scene somewhat, like a guttering candle in the wind, and also gave perspective as to the size of the cavern within which they were falling.

Frodo wakes suddenly from his dream, crying, “Gandalf!” Was Frodo given a vision of Gandalf’s doom, or was it something he ate? And who shot JR ? Anyway, Sam and Frodo make their way through the Emyn Muil, which is where we left them in FotR. Unlike the Tellyland of the Shire, the opening present day scene of the FotR, in TTT we have a much harsher, less colored landscape to view.

Frodo and Sam descend one of the many obstacle cliffs that they’ve encountered, and luckily Sam acquired a bit of rope from the Galadhrim for the trip. We see the two hobbits clinging to the side of the cliff, aided only by their determination and Galadriel’s shiny rope. We see the the anchored knot, which will be important in a moment. Sam, not having much of his Grandfather’s blood in him, struggles in his downward climb. Frodo encourages him, and they continue. Sam starts to slip, and a small box drops from his pocket and he yells for Frodo to catch it.

Silly Frodo, you have the most important artifact of ME around your neck, and yet you put out a had to catch something of Sam’s. Note that holding onto such a thin rope, even with two hands and it being made of hithlain, would not be very easy and I *think* that Frodo and Sam aren’t really climbing

. Frodo loses his grip and falls, finding the bottom.

Cute little joke, as it was delivered well.

Frodo is mostly amused when he finds what he risked his life for: salt for roast chicken. Also cute, and we get to see what thoughts run in Sam’s head. He’s not thinking of siege towers or the Eye or the affairs of wizards, but of his stomach. Sure, we have to destroy that Dark Lord’s Ring and all, but we also have to eat along the way.

And PJ’s little salt joke shows why this quest is special, and why Sam and Frodo are in such a forsaken place. Sam’s carrying a little bit of seasoning; Frodo sees a little piece of the Shire.

Note that I was a little disappointed that the box was not adorned with a G rune nor did it contain dirt.

Before continuing, the two hobbits contemplate what to do about the elvish ladder that they’re leaving tied to the cliff. What to do? Not only was the rope a Galadrielian gift, but it also allows them to be followed. Not that there’s any danger of that I presume.

Sam pulls at the thin line and, magically, the knot unties and the rope drops to their feet. Unlike in the book, where we get more of a clue that the rope is magic and Sam’s knot would hold, here we do not have time for Frodo’s derision and skepticism. He simply agrees that it must be the rope and not Sam’s knot.

More traveling brings them a sight of Mount Doom. After discussing Gandalf’s intentions, Frodo has an Eye attack. PJ is reminding us again who the real enemy is, just in case we forgot. If Frodo is wilting thus at this distance, surely by the time he reaches the Black Gate he will be a quivering mass of jelly. Or not.

Sam and Frodo share a bit of lembas, and again we see the camaraderie. Sam’s the optimist and the caretaker of Frodo. As they wait out the rain, Frodo is suddenly aware that something else is out there. They continue and we find that they are lost. Clever, as I think that PJ states that these various wandering scenes were shot on the same patches of rocks, and so, technically, Sam and Frodo have been there before.

Frodo tells Sam of the pursuit, and they lay a trap.

The first sight of Gollum (I saw the preMovie releases, still…) glowing in the slice of moonlight was great. Here’s thinking that PJ knew that he had to sell the creature right here right now so that we would continue to believe in Middle Earth. After watching the Appendices (assuming you’d been asleep otherwise) you know that that’s a CG representation of Andy Serkis, but if that’s not Gollum…I don’t know how much better he could be represented. The voice, the musculature, the movements, the hair and of course, the eyes.

Jar-Jar who?

Gollum bickers as he descends upon the sleeping hobbits, and he makes to grab for the Ring. But our hobbits are ready for him, or so they think. Sam and Frodo grab after Gollum but he is more than their match as they try to subdue the creature – it’s like bathing a cat.

The sight of the Ring causes Gollum to fight even harder, and Frodo can all but keep him from claiming the Ring. Watch Gollum’s cheeks puff as he struggles to place his finger within his golden goal. Sam tries to help, out muscling him but is not prepared for such a diabolical thing who has done murder before. Quickly the tables turn and Sam is at Gollum’s mercy, and only Sting at Gollum’s neck saves Sam’s life. I just love the detail that the CG people at Weta gave this creature. The forearm around Sam’s neck could be anyone’s.

The taming of poor Sméagol starts, and the elvish rope burns the wretched thing. Sam doesn’t make Gollum any more comfortable with the dragging, no matter how loose the loop around Gollum’s neck (wasn’t that supposed to be his ankle?). After a short while, Sam will have no more of it. He suggests that they tie Gollum up and leave him, and Gollum pleads for his life. Frodo had more pity – well, maybe he also knows that Gollum is to go with them – and so decides another fate for the creature.

Gollum begins to deal for his life, though his honesty in the bargaining is questioned. The Ring is called in to seal the deal, and seemingly Gollum and Frodo understand what this really means. Sam, not having born the Ring at this point, doesn’t, and so he doubts. Frodo decided to have Gollum as his guide to Mordor in exchange for his life.

Though Gollum accepts - what choice does he have? - he still have some details to work out, and that’s when we first see the schizophrenia /duality of the creature. The devil’s in the details, as it is always said, but in this case, who’s side is the devil on?

Gollum runs from Sam and Frodo, and we’ll have to wait until we return to this story line to see if the promise that he made, sworn by the Ring, holds yet a little while.

A note about the DVD itself. Did you notice, unlike the FotR DVD, that the scene cursor is a White Hand? Cool that.

**Attributed to Major General Oliver P. Smith.

Elladan and Elrohir · 02-09-2006, 09:07 PM

Talk about a whiz-bang way to open up a film. I absolutely love it. The score is phenomenal, too.

Thanks to the extremely hard work of Andy Serkis and WETA, Gollum truly comes to life on the screen. Unbelievable how real he is. From this point, all CGI characters will be divided into two categories: the pre-Gollum era (Jar-Jar) and the post-Gollum era (Aslan and Kong). Gollum is a watershed in CGI.

I loved the extension with the elvish rope and the box of salt, since the scene is in the book and the box of salt is mentioned as one of Sam's stowed-away items as the Company leaves Rivendell. There will be many other small things from the book to watch for in this film as in the last one, such as the horsetail on Eomer's helm, and the orc-head on the stake (which I'm sure PJ would have put in even if it wasn't in the book).

I think TTT may be the "most improved" of the EE's. All the extensions are GREAT. Most of the ones in ROTK are good, but then there's the drinking contest, and Gandalf getting stomped by the Witch-king.

02-10-2006, 03:50 PM

I think the opening of this movie was very well done. The sharp contrast between the close ups of the fall and the very wide shot of the two approaching the lake does a good job of showing the action while maintaing a sense of scale.

Also, I agree that Gollum really is a defining moment for CG animation.

I think the reason why Gollum is so succesfully as a CG character, is for maybe, the first time, the CG element was not intended to replace and actor's prescence, but was used to enhance the actor's prescence.

In most CG movies it seems the CG character to meant to be the actor and they get some voice actor so it makes the right sounds. However, what LotR did so succesfully, is it took Andy Cerkis (who will never receive the true credit he deserves for acting in that role) and let him be Gollum. In effect, the CG is being used as a very impressive make-up job, rather than a actor replacement.

As an aside let me say, I have no idea how much Andy Cerkis got for playing Gollum, but it couldn't be close to what he deserved. If you watched any of the behind the scenes features you know they tortured that poor guy!

Lathriel · 02-11-2006, 02:13 PM

The intro of TTT gave me goosbumps the first time I saw it in the theatre and it still does now. One thing I definitly like of all the beginnings of these movies is that there are no jingles with the logos of Aliance Atlantis and New Line Cinema. The silence just makes it feel special and heightens the anticipation when the title comes up on the screen.
So back to TTT, it is nice that the movie begins with a nature shot because that is what this movie deals with extensively, with the ents and all. Of all three of the movies Tolkien's concern of industrialization is most clearly present in this one.
My major concern about Gollum was that he would be too scary to look at. I find that they did make him scary but not too much and I like it that they could change Gollum from looking scary and evil to trusting to almost cute(in the stew scene). I really think Gollum is the best in TTT.
I also find that the farther we get into the trilogy the more Elijah Wood's acting improves. (Especially in ROTK)
I was hoping that the little box of seasoning would be the box with the seeds, but if they had done that it wouldn't have made much sense since there is no scouring of the shire.

Tuor of Gondolin · 02-14-2006, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Finally, the entangled foes enter a larger cavern, then find the bottom in the icy lake at the very foundations of the world. I liked the way the flames of the Balrog light the cavern briefly as they fall towards the lake. The distant point of view saddened the scene somewhat, like a guttering candle in the wind, and also gave perspective as to the size of the cavern within which they were falling.

I thought this scene one of PJ's best, with the jolt a viewer
(especially non-book) would receive when realizing the perspective
and sizes as Gandalf and the balrog fall to the bottom. This scene in general, and the next (until the Gimli jokes start) show PJ at his best.
The Gollum of TTT is especially excellent, making the decision to
go against the book in movie ROTK in the characterization of
Gollum (in the book he really starts to repent, but PJ says he
wanted to show TTT repentence was false.

alatar · 02-14-2006, 03:10 PM

There was much speculation regarding how PJ would start the second installment. Surely he some original ideas, yet the praise and monies that he received for FotR also may have influenced his decisions. I remember him saying that he wanted to start TTT with a bang, and I think that he did well. You're instantly back in ME (not much time to think), your heart is racing then suddenly WHAM! we slow a bit to walk with Frodo and Sam. After getting used to them again we get Gollum, who increases the tension. And think just how exciting Frodo and Sam's journey really is, and so PJ pumped it up a bit with the Balrog beginning.

On the other side of the coin, many complained that the film should have started with some kind of summation - a State of Middle Earth address, if you will. The summary does appear, but it's in the middle of the film, and I know that my illiterate sister was lost until that information was provided.

02-08-2006, 03:52 PM	#1
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	LotR2-TTT-Seq01 History does not start when we first become aware of time… The second movie in PJ's trilogy begins, not with a whimper, but a bang. We start with a sunrise over the Misty Mountains. PJ leads out with his strengths. Is this Alaska? New Zealand? In a moment or two we know that it’s Middle Earth, but you never think that it’s some CG world. We follow the ridgeline, like some Google Middle Earth tour, then it’s the X-ray vision tour as we see what is happening inside these backbones of stone. Frodo’s voice gives a clue, but is this new or déjà vu? Think that I remember Gandalf saying those words in FotR, but this is TTT. Suddenly we’re back on the Bridge of Khazad-dûm, and we see Gandalf battle the Balrog once again from a slightly different camera angle. But this time, instead of following the Eight, we follow the One. Gandalf once again falls after the smoking Balrog. He first catches up with Glamdring, and that’s when I started thinking that he didn’t fall so much as continue after his foe. “Retreat, hell, we’re just fighting in a different direction!”** Gandalf hews at the Balrog, who ever clutches at the Guided Grey Missile. The hole in which they fall is small, limiting the lateral movement of Balrog, which surely is a good thing for Gandalf. Still, the Balrog gets in a shot for the many sword strokes dealt by Gandalf. Did you see the wings, by the by? Well, that should put that question to rest, as PJ is obviously the definitive source. Finally, the entangled foes enter a larger cavern, then find the bottom in the icy lake at the very foundations of the world. I liked the way the flames of the Balrog light the cavern briefly as they fall towards the lake. The distant point of view saddened the scene somewhat, like a guttering candle in the wind, and also gave perspective as to the size of the cavern within which they were falling. Frodo wakes suddenly from his dream, crying, “Gandalf!” Was Frodo given a vision of Gandalf’s doom, or was it something he ate? And who shot JR ? Anyway, Sam and Frodo make their way through the Emyn Muil, which is where we left them in FotR. Unlike the Tellyland of the Shire, the opening present day scene of the FotR, in TTT we have a much harsher, less colored landscape to view. Frodo and Sam descend one of the many obstacle cliffs that they’ve encountered, and luckily Sam acquired a bit of rope from the Galadhrim for the trip. We see the two hobbits clinging to the side of the cliff, aided only by their determination and Galadriel’s shiny rope. We see the the anchored knot, which will be important in a moment. Sam, not having much of his Grandfather’s blood in him, struggles in his downward climb. Frodo encourages him, and they continue. Sam starts to slip, and a small box drops from his pocket and he yells for Frodo to catch it. Silly Frodo, you have the most important artifact of ME around your neck, and yet you put out a had to catch something of Sam’s. Note that holding onto such a thin rope, even with two hands and it being made of hithlain, would not be very easy and I think that Frodo and Sam aren’t really climbing . Frodo loses his grip and falls, finding the bottom. Cute little joke, as it was delivered well. Frodo is mostly amused when he finds what he risked his life for: salt for roast chicken. Also cute, and we get to see what thoughts run in Sam’s head. He’s not thinking of siege towers or the Eye or the affairs of wizards, but of his stomach. Sure, we have to destroy that Dark Lord’s Ring and all, but we also have to eat along the way. And PJ’s little salt joke shows why this quest is special, and why Sam and Frodo are in such a forsaken place. Sam’s carrying a little bit of seasoning; Frodo sees a little piece of the Shire. Note that I was a little disappointed that the box was not adorned with a G rune nor did it contain dirt. Before continuing, the two hobbits contemplate what to do about the elvish ladder that they’re leaving tied to the cliff. What to do? Not only was the rope a Galadrielian gift, but it also allows them to be followed. Not that there’s any danger of that I presume. Sam pulls at the thin line and, magically, the knot unties and the rope drops to their feet. Unlike in the book, where we get more of a clue that the rope is magic and Sam’s knot would hold, here we do not have time for Frodo’s derision and skepticism. He simply agrees that it must be the rope and not Sam’s knot. More traveling brings them a sight of Mount Doom. After discussing Gandalf’s intentions, Frodo has an Eye attack. PJ is reminding us again who the real enemy is, just in case we forgot. If Frodo is wilting thus at this distance, surely by the time he reaches the Black Gate he will be a quivering mass of jelly. Or not. Sam and Frodo share a bit of lembas, and again we see the camaraderie. Sam’s the optimist and the caretaker of Frodo. As they wait out the rain, Frodo is suddenly aware that something else is out there. They continue and we find that they are lost. Clever, as I think that PJ states that these various wandering scenes were shot on the same patches of rocks, and so, technically, Sam and Frodo have been there before. Frodo tells Sam of the pursuit, and they lay a trap. The first sight of Gollum (I saw the preMovie releases, still…) glowing in the slice of moonlight was great. Here’s thinking that PJ knew that he had to sell the creature right here right now so that we would continue to believe in Middle Earth. After watching the Appendices (assuming you’d been asleep otherwise) you know that that’s a CG representation of Andy Serkis, but if that’s not Gollum…I don’t know how much better he could be represented. The voice, the musculature, the movements, the hair and of course, the eyes. Jar-Jar who? Gollum bickers as he descends upon the sleeping hobbits, and he makes to grab for the Ring. But our hobbits are ready for him, or so they think. Sam and Frodo grab after Gollum but he is more than their match as they try to subdue the creature – it’s like bathing a cat. The sight of the Ring causes Gollum to fight even harder, and Frodo can all but keep him from claiming the Ring. Watch Gollum’s cheeks puff as he struggles to place his finger within his golden goal. Sam tries to help, out muscling him but is not prepared for such a diabolical thing who has done murder before. Quickly the tables turn and Sam is at Gollum’s mercy, and only Sting at Gollum’s neck saves Sam’s life. I just love the detail that the CG people at Weta gave this creature. The forearm around Sam’s neck could be anyone’s. The taming of poor Sméagol starts, and the elvish rope burns the wretched thing. Sam doesn’t make Gollum any more comfortable with the dragging, no matter how loose the loop around Gollum’s neck (wasn’t that supposed to be his ankle?). After a short while, Sam will have no more of it. He suggests that they tie Gollum up and leave him, and Gollum pleads for his life. Frodo had more pity – well, maybe he also knows that Gollum is to go with them – and so decides another fate for the creature. Gollum begins to deal for his life, though his honesty in the bargaining is questioned. The Ring is called in to seal the deal, and seemingly Gollum and Frodo understand what this really means. Sam, not having born the Ring at this point, doesn’t, and so he doubts. Frodo decided to have Gollum as his guide to Mordor in exchange for his life. Though Gollum accepts - what choice does he have? - he still have some details to work out, and that’s when we first see the schizophrenia /duality of the creature. The devil’s in the details, as it is always said, but in this case, who’s side is the devil on? Gollum runs from Sam and Frodo, and we’ll have to wait until we return to this story line to see if the promise that he made, sworn by the Ring, holds yet a little while. A note about the DVD itself. Did you notice, unlike the FotR DVD, that the scene cursor is a White Hand? Cool that. *Attributed to Major General Oliver P. Smith. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.* Last edited by alatar; 02-08-2006 at 06:40 PM.

02-09-2006, 09:07 PM	#2
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Talk about a whiz-bang way to open up a film. I absolutely love it. The score is phenomenal, too. Thanks to the extremely hard work of Andy Serkis and WETA, Gollum truly comes to life on the screen. Unbelievable how real he is. From this point, all CGI characters will be divided into two categories: the pre-Gollum era (Jar-Jar) and the post-Gollum era (Aslan and Kong). Gollum is a watershed in CGI. I loved the extension with the elvish rope and the box of salt, since the scene is in the book and the box of salt is mentioned as one of Sam's stowed-away items as the Company leaves Rivendell. There will be many other small things from the book to watch for in this film as in the last one, such as the horsetail on Eomer's helm, and the orc-head on the stake (which I'm sure PJ would have put in even if it wasn't in the book). I think TTT may be the "most improved" of the EE's. All the extensions are GREAT. Most of the ones in ROTK are good, but then there's the drinking contest, and Gandalf getting stomped by the Witch-king. __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

02-11-2006, 02:13 PM	#4
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	The intro of TTT gave me goosbumps the first time I saw it in the theatre and it still does now. One thing I definitly like of all the beginnings of these movies is that there are no jingles with the logos of Aliance Atlantis and New Line Cinema. The silence just makes it feel special and heightens the anticipation when the title comes up on the screen. So back to TTT, it is nice that the movie begins with a nature shot because that is what this movie deals with extensively, with the ents and all. Of all three of the movies Tolkien's concern of industrialization is most clearly present in this one. My major concern about Gollum was that he would be too scary to look at. I find that they did make him scary but not too much and I like it that they could change Gollum from looking scary and evil to trusting to almost cute(in the stew scene). I really think Gollum is the best in TTT. I also find that the farther we get into the trilogy the more Elijah Wood's acting improves. (Especially in ROTK) I was hoping that the little box of seasoning would be the box with the seeds, but if they had done that it wouldn't have made much sense since there is no scouring of the shire. __________________ Back again

02-14-2006, 03:10 PM	#6
alatar Doubting Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Heaven's basement Posts: 2,466	There was much speculation regarding how PJ would start the second installment. Surely he some original ideas, yet the praise and monies that he received for FotR also may have influenced his decisions. I remember him saying that he wanted to start TTT with a bang, and I think that he did well. You're instantly back in ME (not much time to think), your heart is racing then suddenly WHAM! we slow a bit to walk with Frodo and Sam. After getting used to them again we get Gollum, who increases the tension. And think just how exciting Frodo and Sam's journey really is, and so PJ pumped it up a bit with the Balrog beginning. On the other side of the coin, many complained that the film should have started with some kind of summation - a State of Middle Earth address, if you will. The summary does appear, but it's in the middle of the film, and I know that my illiterate sister was lost until that information was provided. __________________ There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.

02-10-2006, 03:50 PM	#3
Artano Guest Posts: n/a	I think the opening of this movie was very well done. The sharp contrast between the close ups of the fall and the very wide shot of the two approaching the lake does a good job of showing the action while maintaing a sense of scale. Also, I agree that Gollum really is a defining moment for CG animation. I think the reason why Gollum is so succesfully as a CG character, is for maybe, the first time, the CG element was not intended to replace and actor's prescence, but was used to enhance the actor's prescence. In most CG movies it seems the CG character to meant to be the actor and they get some voice actor so it makes the right sounds. However, what LotR did so succesfully, is it took Andy Cerkis (who will never receive the true credit he deserves for acting in that role) and let him be Gollum. In effect, the CG is being used as a very impressive make-up job, rather than a actor replacement. As an aside let me say, I have no idea how much Andy Cerkis got for playing Gollum, but it couldn't be close to what he deserved. If you watched any of the behind the scenes features you know they tortured that poor guy!