The Hobbit - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter is absolutely pivotal, not only for Bilbo ("It was a turning point in his career..."), who was able to fulfil his role as a burglar because of the ring (no capital R yet!), but also for Tolkien's Legendarium, which was given a focal point for the events of the Third Age, and indeed for JRR Tolkien himself! His life was changed as a result, some things for the better, such as increased finances later on, and some things for the worse, as far as his personal privacy was concerned.

On a side note, the title of this chapter made it into the LotR movie, as one of the phrases Gandalf muttered to himself in Bag End.

Though Bilbo is completely out of the picture concerning his quest and companions, we see him growing into the person he is to become. The Elvish blade provides both light and defense, helping him take an active role, and his decision to go forward is brave!

He (and the readers) meets Gollum here. Do you remember your impressions of him the first time you read the book? Did he scare you? Did any of you read the original version of this chapter first, the one that was published before it was revised to fit in with LotR? Perhaps those of you who have a copy of the original version can briefly summarize the differences for us. One question that occurred to me - was Bilbo foolish to name his real name in a situation like this?

What do you think of the riddle contest? What about Gollum's promise if Bilbo won? It's lucky for Bilbo that Gollum has developed the habit of talking to himself, thereby giving the hobbit some important information about the ring.

Then comes what is perhaps the most important part - Bilbo's pity and understanding for Gollum. This has an enormous effect on the later story of the LotR. He escapes both Gollum's and the goblins' attacks, though not without a sacrifice - his brass buttons!

How do Bilbo's and Gollum's characters compare in this chapter? Which are their similarities, which their differences? How do you feel when reading it?

[littlemanpoet]

I have to comment on this now instead of later!

As I've mentioned elsewhere, this chapter was my introduction to Tolkien, because my older brother gave me a vocal performance of it, reading it aloud to me at bed time. The events in the chapter changed Bilbo's life; I can honestly say that this moment in my own experience changed my life. In discovering Tolkien, my imagination was baptized (to borrow a phrase from Lewis), and I have never looked back.

Part of what captured my imagination was the life and death aspect of this event; also, Gollum was deliciously scary and evil. On top of that, the riddling is enough to capture the interest of any young reader; it also awakened me to the realities of Anglo-Saxon poetry, which I was to discover only much later.

I (once upon a time) had Jared Lobdell's (edited) Tolkien Compass (now sadly lent and lost), in which the old and new versions are presented side by side. That was a fascinating read! And I'm so glad Tolkien revised it for the sake of LotR. From memory, the main difference in the original version is that Gollum keeps his word, and leads Bilbo out of the depths of the mountain. I don't remember, but it's almost like Gollum wishes him luck, like in some Grimm's Fairy Tale! The edge of one's seat intensity of the revised version is much better, and allows for the eucatastrophe of Bilbo's change of heart, choosing not to kill Gollum out of pity. Very important and very moving.

Was Bilbo foolish? Well, yes, but it was really naiveté, wasn't it? It highlighted how immature and childish he still was at this point, which only heightened the impact of the very mature pitying of Gollum at the end of the chapter, not to mention the exceedingly deft handling of political turmoils between Thorin and the army that wanted a share in the spoils of Smaug's death.

The fact that Gollum and Bilbo riddle back and forth to each other shows their kinship, however remote. Their minds are not dissimilar; thus, we have a clue that Bilbo does have the potential to become a second Gollum! But that is maybe hindsight only. Or is it?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I (once upon a time) had Jared Lobdell's (edited) Tolkien Compass (now sadly lent and lost), in which the old and new versions are presented side by side.

You might want to check out The Annotated Hobbit, which
gives the versions and discusses them, although my
impression is that the editor of The Annotated Hobbit
prefers the original version and doesn't see a compelling
reason to have changed it..

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

The fact that Gollum and Bilbo riddle back and forth to each other shows their kinship, however remote. Their minds are not dissimilar; thus, we have a clue that Bilbo does have the potential to become a second Gollum! But that is maybe hindsight only. Or is it?

I think it's also a question of character and personality. And, if there's such a thing, I'd say that Bilbo had better ring-resistance than Gollum did. But again, the situations in wich they first saw (and took) the Ring are very dissimilar. Would Bilbo have used violence to get the Ring? (Luckily) we don't know. But it's interesting to speculate. I don't believe he would have because he had a different personality and had a better self-control or/and ring-resistance than Gollum had.
Another fact that affects would Bilbo have become another Gollum is that the Ring had more time to affect Gollum. If Bilbo had wielded the Ring as long as Gollum did, what would he have become? He had a better ring-resistance (he f.g. gave it up voluntarily), but was he resistant enough? I think he would have become a "milder" version of Gollum.

Riddles in the Dark has always been one of my favourite chapters. the riddle-game intrigues me. The riddles fascinated me when I was first read TH aloud (I was about 6 yo). I couldn't guess them, but I could get the "air" of them and was always keen to know the answer.
I'm also interested in the first version of the chapter and how it would have changed the Lord of the Rings, if it had remained. (Discussed here.)

Also, I like that the buttons of Bilbo's vest come off. In the midst of all adventure there are such small things! And it's so absurd (sorry, I'm jumping to the next chapter) when Bilbo grieves after his buttons when he's barely got out of the caves alive!

[JennyHallu]

I don't know if Bilbo's resistance to the Ring was as much better than Smeagol's as it seems. Bilbo found the Ring in such a way that it prevented any necessity of violence. Perhaps the ring had learned how to approach his victims.

Honestly, I never really got the feeling that the handy little trinket in The Hobbit and the actively malevolent presence in The Lord of the Rings were the same bit of jewelry. Almost as though even in his revision of the chapter Tolkien still hadn't yet realized quite what a danger the Ring was going to be.

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum? The ring had left him, and Bilbo was bringing up all his hidden and hated memories of sun and happiness, and Smeagol really seemed almost wistful about it.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum? The ring had left him, and Bilbo was bringing up all his hidden and hated memories of sun and happiness, and Smeagol really seemed almost wistful about it.

Interesting question; I've never thought about that. More Sméagol, me thinks, but some mixture of the persons maybe describs the Gollum of TH better. Or maybe first Sméagol and after realising the loss of the Ring Gollum?

[JennyHallu]

Or first Smeagol, and Gollum arrived after Bilbo cheated. In the Two Towers and the Return of the King Smeagol always turned to Gollum when he felt he had been wronged.

[Raynor]

What about Gollum's promise if Bilbo won?

Well, that seems to be the weak part in Tolkien's linking the Hobbit to Lotr:

Originally Posted by Letter #109

Rayner has, of course, spotted a weakness (inevitable): the linking. I am glad that he thinks that the linking has on the whole been well done. That is the best that could be hoped. I have done the best I could, since I had to have hobbits (whom I love), and must still have a glimpse of Bilbo for old times' sake. But I don't feel worried by the discovery that the ring was more serious than appeared; that is just the way of all easy ways out. Nor is it Bilbo's actions, I think, that need explanation. The weakness is Gollum, and his action in offering the ring as a present

I wonder if Bilbo was riddling with Smeagol or Gollum?

I doubt that Smeagol the hobbit would fancy eating another hobbit

[JennyHallu]

I doubt Gollum knows that many riddles. I suppose I thought that Gollum set the terms and watched the game, but let Smeagol play. Smeagol wasn't ever gone from Gollum's character, but I think he just never argued until Frodo came into the picture.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

I doubt Gollum knows that many riddles.

Well, Gollum wasn't a houseless fea who co-habited Smeagol's body (if that was the case, you could be right) - he was just a part of his fea, a fea which maintained his cohesion and experience.

[JennyHallu]

Part of his fea, yes, but I contend his fea was fragmented. I really liked the way that the movie portrayed his multiple personalities, because it really put into words, so to speak, the impression that I got from the book...Think of a modern day person with Multiple Personalities. One persona may not necessarily have the same knowledge of the other personas.

[Raynor]

One persona may not necessarily have the same knowledge of the other personas.

In The shadow of the past, FotR, Gandalf tells about Gollum in the Misty Mountains that "there was nothing more to find out, nothing worth doing, only nasty furtive eating and _resentful remembering_". Anyway, a Gollum without the knowledge possesed by Smeagol would make a poor survivor, even in the wilds, however small that knowledge may be.

Concerning luck and cheating, I think that the following passages are also relevant(from the Prologue):

In the end Bilbo won the game, more by luck (as it seemed) than by wits; for he was stumped at last for a riddle to ask, and cried out, as his hand came upon the ring he lad picked up and forgotten: _What haw I got in my pocket?_ This Gollum failed to answer, though he demanded three guesses. The Authorities, it is true, differ whether this last question was a mere 'question' and not a 'riddle' according to the strict rules of the Game; but all agree that, after accepting it and trying to guess the answer, Gollum was bound by his promise.