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02-08-2004, 05:06 AM | #1 | ||
Scion of The Faithful
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Sméagol: Hero of the Third Age
Many have fallen in the War of the Ring. Remember Théoden's glorious fall before the Gates of Mundburg, the Men of Gondor and Rohan who stood before sure death and scoffed the "Abandon all hope ye who dareth picnic in this place" message that Morannon conveys.
But do we notice the fact that it was Gollum that that made the shedding of blood meaningful? I know, I know. Gollum fell into Mt. Doom, because he broke his tryst, not because of my damned-fool idea of his sacrifice. Well, have you looked at it from another angle? Sméagol's pact was: Quote:
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Frodo tried to destroy the Ring. He failed. Now Sauron had within his grasp his treasure, and Sméagol might have realised that. So he had to take the Ring - take it with him and spare Frodo the necessity of taking a luxurious lava bath. He had to fulfill the promise his master had failed to keep. Am I "herofying" Sméagol too much? Later days! ->Elenrod
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Last edited by Nilpaurion Felagund; 06-09-2008 at 07:38 AM. Reason: fixing smilies |
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02-08-2004, 07:34 AM | #2 |
Illusionary Holbytla
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 7,547
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It's an interesting thought. I personally don't think that Smeagol was taking the Ring to keep it away from Sauron or to save Frodo. He wanted the Ring. He had wanted it ever since Deagol found it. Now he saw that it was going to be destroyed and he wouldn't let that happen, so he attacked Frodo. He probably did see that Sauron could take the Ring at that point but I don't think that that was a motive for trying to take the Ring. And falling into the lava was a pure accident on Gollum's part, with perhaps some intervention on Eru's part.
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02-08-2004, 08:02 AM | #3 |
Ubiquitous Urulóki
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Interesting point you make.
I, for one, believe that Smeagol was acting primarily out of his lust for the ring, but still using tact. He knew that if Frodo had the ring, he could get it back. If Sauron had the ring he couldn't. He perhaps knew of the Ring's coming destruction and wanted to prevent that, but I'm not sure he cared about protecting the ring and Frodo as much he did about having the ring, which is why, when he finally got it, he just fell into Mount Doom carelessly.
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"What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies |
02-08-2004, 08:02 AM | #4 |
Haunting Spirit
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Basically, Smeagol just danced around on the Sammath Naur, and he went too close to the edge and he fell in. He probably died quite happy, seeing as the Ring was once again in his possession.
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02-08-2004, 10:01 AM | #5 |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Troll's larder
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You know, bringing Gollum up, I do remember Gandalf saying that he hated the ring. This, I believe, are his words:"He hated it and loved it, as he hated and loved himself. He could not get rid of it. He had no will left in the matter."
Perhaps, just perhaps, Gollum for a split second before entering the fire, realised that he was free at last? Maybe, if he was even given the chance to save himself, he would not even have tried?
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02-08-2004, 01:23 PM | #6 |
Deathless Sun
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I think of it this way:
Gollum grabbed, or rather, bit, the Ring from Frodo out of pure desire. There was no heroism or selflessness there, it was just a thoroughly complete "I WANT YOU!!!!!" - type thing. Eru "saw" this going on and decided to give Gollum a wee nudge over the edge. The rest of the story we all know.
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But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark. |
02-08-2004, 04:03 PM | #7 | |
Banshee of Camelot
Join Date: May 2002
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Hm, this is an interesting thought, Nilpaurion Felagund!
Though I agree with the others that in the actual tale Gollum took the Ring from selfish reasons and fell in by "accident". But do you know that Tolkien himself pictured a scenario that could have happened IF Sméagol had actually repented in that tragic moment on the stairs? (If Sam had acted differently... ) From letter 246(written 1963) Quote:
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02-09-2004, 04:05 AM | #8 |
Illustrious Ulair
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Something I threw in on the Frodo at Sammath Naur Thread, but wasn't picked up on there:
'Someone once pointed out to me that when Gandalf agrees with Frodo that Gollum 'deserves' death, he may have meant it differently to Frodo - intending 'death' as a release from centuries of torment, & peace at last. He could no longer live without the Ring, so only death could end his torment, & Eru, in bringing about his death at the Sammath Naur is finally forgiving Smeagol & allowing him to rest.' Don't know if anyone finds that idea relevant here. Did Illuvatar finally permit Smeagol the 'release' he needed, after all those centuries of suffering? Had Illuvatar decided there was no peace to be had in the world for Smeagol, that He would allow him to obtain, finally, the thing that had obsessed him for so long, & then allow him to finally have the death he 'deserved' - if death is the 'Gift' of Illuvatar to Men (& by extension Hobbits), then denial of it to any mortal creature is a punishment. Or, is Smeagol's death the final punishment of a wicked creature, leading to eternal damnation, or is it Illuvatar's final act of forgiveness? |
02-09-2004, 10:27 PM | #9 |
Beholder of the Mists
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So from what I have read it was very much fate that caused Gollum to fall and thus distroy the ring.
Though going back to if his death was a gift or a curse. I could not see Gollum being punished for what he did. Even though I never did like him as a character, he was just too twisted and poisoned because of the ring, he really had no control over his life. I could see how his death could be considered a "gift". He did have a long, you could say terrible life, that was mostly governed over by the ring. But of course my more truth driven side of my brain says it would most likely be an accident. It was the right thing to happen though
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02-09-2004, 10:35 PM | #10 |
Animated Skeleton
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This is kind of off topic, but wouldn't Gollum have died anyway when the ring was destroyed? He was so bound to the ring that I think that he would have been either physically destroyed or killed himself for want of the ring. What do you think? Maybe he would have just collapsed because the ring extended his life and once the ring was destroyed the life extension wouldn't be there anymore. He would probably die of old age.
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02-10-2004, 01:24 AM | #11 | |
Haunted Halfling
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This reply was made earlier today, but did not make the transition to the new forum, so I'm pasting it from the old. To continue:
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Cheers, Lyta
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“…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.” |
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10-29-2006, 05:41 PM | #12 | ||
Cryptic Aura
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Quote:
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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10-29-2006, 07:02 PM | #13 |
Itinerant Songster
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Agreed, Bethberry. That's not at all what I'm thinking or talking about here, just in case anybody was wondering.
So according to Letter #181, my original sense was accurate after all: Gollum was wholly wicked and that little scene with Sam (Sneak!) was indeed really tragic. Thanks, Raynor. |
10-31-2006, 07:19 AM | #14 |
Pile O'Bones
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I humbly aplogise if this is kind of off-topic... I want to point out that even though Gollum may not have made a tragic sacrifice (though that would have been quite touching), does that mean he was not a hero? Whatever be his motives, it still was him who actually destroyed the Ring. Of course his heroism would have increased if he had been a tragic martyr. But does it completely disappear if his motives were not that noble?
Actually, now that I think of it a weird thought comes to me. What if, after all, it should actually be Gollum who is to be credited of destroying the Ring. Of course I know that Frodo and Sam are to be thanked of that. But why not Gollum too? It was he who led them to Mordor, through places they would never have managed themselves. And, in the bitter end, it was Gollum who destroyed the Ring. So why is he not mentioned as a hero, but as a villain who met his rightful end? Is it because Gollum did so much evil? But, actually, isn't it so that in all his evil deeds, it has actually been the Ring who made him to do those things? Even in the murder of Déagol, he was attracted by the ring. And even though that murder could not be protected by the involvement of the Ring, then he could be blamed of a murder. But what about Túrin, then? Was he not a hero, even though he murdered a couple of good men and fell in love with his sister? My main question here is: is a person who does good unwillingly a hero, and how much do motives mean in such great deeds as the destruction of the Dark Lord? |
10-31-2006, 10:28 AM | #15 |
Eagle of the Star
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Glaurung, I disagree with your line of reasoning; according to this, we should glorify Melkor and Sauron, because due to their unwilling mistakes, they brought about the fall of great evil. Turin was someone who was actively and willingly battling a good fight, against a known and recognized evil (welll, most of the times) so I don't think that comparing him to Gollum holds water.
Imo, personal aims and willing effort according to those aims is what makes a hero; even the slaying of the witch-king, though extremely fortunate, still required a great deal of past involvement, effort and sacrifice on behalf of that particular hero; he didn't just woke up besides the witch king, with a dagger fallen out of the sky right into his hand. |
10-31-2006, 08:23 AM | #16 | |
Gibbering Gibbet
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Quote:
Unless I am misapprehending what you mean by "wholly wicked"...is this distinct from irredeemable evil? Glaurung: it's interesting to note how Gollum sees himself in light of your comments. He certainly sees himself as the (long suffering) hero, and he would undoubtedly argue that his most heroic moment is that in which he took the Ring -- he would have no problem seeing himself as a 'holy' person achieving his own 'grail' as a reward for his trials. In that sense he really does die a hero...
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10-31-2006, 09:08 PM | #17 | |
Itinerant Songster
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02-10-2004, 04:51 AM | #18 | |||||
Scion of The Faithful
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I see many have reacted...good!
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In essence, this: Quote:
Later days! ->Elenrod
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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03-05-2004, 01:37 AM | #19 |
Guest
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Re: Your theory
Nilpaurion Felagund, I don't think your theory is plausible. Gollum suppressed the good that is in him, to the point that, by the time he met Frodo, it was almost non-existent. He collaborated with the evil side of Sméagol, the one that killed Déagol in the first place, allowing both personalities to be corrupted by their lust for the Ring, which had the same effect on them as it had on Morgoth and Sauron--it dried up their potential for life, for the chance to awaken from their bondage.
Maybe the good side of Sméagol was briefly awakened during his encounter with Frodo, but it was in such a bad shape it never had a chance to really stand out--except probably during Cirith Ungol. Even then, it was so volatile, that only a sharp word from Master Samwise was needed to bring it into exile forever. |
03-16-2004, 07:37 PM | #20 |
Face in the Water
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Perhaps Smollum realized that with the ending of the Ring would come his death, so he decided to try and take it, seeing as he had nothing to lose. Except his duct tape.
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03-18-2004, 10:17 AM | #21 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
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indeed he was
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03-19-2004, 08:01 PM | #22 | ||
Wight
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Back to the original question posted by Nilpaurion Felagund:
Smeagol pledged to save the precious, obey the master of the precious, and never let him have it. Smeagol made a solemn promise to do this. Now at the Cracks of Doom, I do not believe that Gollum was acting because he thought of the pledge and that he had a momentary change of heart or anything at that time. There, he was fully corrupted and only desired his precious back. However, I do believe, that it was in this moment that fate/Eru/the Ring, made this moment the time when Smeagol's pledge was fulfilled. IMHO because Smeagol promised that he would: [ Quote:
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03-20-2004, 02:01 AM | #23 | |
Wight
Join Date: Feb 2004
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One thing that struck me just now, was that Gullom swore by the One Ring (his precioussss) never to let Sauron have it. If Gollum had sworn by Illuvator like Feanor and his sons, I suppose Illuvator would have stepped in eventually to set things right. Obviously, Gollum was counting on the possession of the Ring to sidestep his oath. It had been in his mind ever since his oath, to take the Ring and yet fulfill his oath.
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'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' |
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03-20-2004, 02:58 AM | #24 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Oh, well.
I've been doing more of a researh and found out I was wrong.
Elenrod shrugs his shoulders. It's only a theory, anyway.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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03-20-2004, 07:52 AM | #25 |
Pile O'Bones
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i think that although he did 'steal' the ring, if Gollum hadn't of done, it might never have been destroyed.
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03-21-2004, 05:24 PM | #26 |
Wight
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I agree with Firefoot. Gollum wanted the ring for himself. in truth he did do what you say but i dont think that was his intention. he didnt mean to destroy the ring either. he just fell. intereting point though
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10-09-2006, 08:12 PM | #27 |
Mellifluous Maia
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Well, I was about to start a new thread on the topic of Smeagol's stumble, but then I found this.
Nilpaurion, I'm curious, how can you be sure you were wrong? Doesn't this come down to speculation about Smeagol's unconscious motivations? I know that, to me at least, this brings to mind Freud's theory that "there are no accidents". I certainly believe Gollum/Smeagol's total conscious motivation was to get the ring back and nothing more, and this is what made him bite off Frodo's finger, take the ring and do his little dance of victory...but there was also a "chink of light" in his soul. There was some part of his mind, buried in his subconscious, perhaps, that was aware the ring was evil; always aware, for his long, long life that the murder of Deagol and his subsequent wretched existance was caused by the ring. I think that we can't discount the fact that there was some part of him that hated the ring, and perhaps desired its destruction. Now, if that part of him had so little control over his actions, there is no way he could have thrown the ring in the fire, something even Frodo, who consciously desired it, could not do. The only good action within the power of his will at that point was the one he took - he "stepped too far". I see it as one last desperate, half conscious impulse for good that caused him to fall. Now, I'm aware there is an article on this site, and several posters here, that flatly dismiss this idea, but to me it makes more sense than either the idea of a random fall, or of Eru pushing people into the crack of doom. (Actually, though, if it was some sudden impulse in Smeagol's psyche, this could itself be seen as an act of Eru, although it would also include a subconscious choice on Smeagol's part). |
10-09-2006, 10:34 PM | #28 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Howcome no-one else (as far as I've seen) has picked up on this?)
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I picked up on that quote last time I read LoTR. To me it means that Frodo's words were like an order to Gollum. Once he attacked Frodo and took the Ring from him (touching Frodo in the process) he was forced (although subconsciously) to comply with Frodo's words. He casts himself into the fires of Mt. Doom and he brings the Ring along for the Ride... and ends with his his life and his precious.
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10-09-2006, 10:41 PM | #29 |
Mellifluous Maia
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Ah! A prophecy. Yes, why didn't I see that before?
Of course, it still doesn't rule out the prophecy working through Smeagol, and his actions ... some part of him deciding, midjump, to swing one leg a few inches too far. The fate of Middle Earth hanging in the balance - Smeagol loses his balance. For some reason, I really like it & I think it's a shame Peter Jackson felt the need to change it. |
06-11-2008, 01:16 AM | #30 |
Scion of The Faithful
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Pulling an H-I.
This is an interesting thread related to this topic:
Was Gollum's slip the only way? by Eomer of the Rohirrim
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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