Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

[Sardy]

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring? Surely, as his "specialty" and area of study was ring-lore, he, perhaps moreso than anyone else, would have nowledge of the ring's abilty to bend the will of its user to its master... Did Saruman realize this, in his pursuit of the Ring? Or, was he arrogant enough to believe that he could bend the Ring's will to is own?

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

[MatthewM]

I believe that Saruman was so obsessed with gaining power and had dropped so much from the original cause of the Istari that he did think if he attained the One Ring he could master it for his own.

[Gil-Galad]

He was entranced with power like the old Maiar that became the Balrogs and other demons of Melkor.

Remember, Sauron was a Maiar. Saruman was a Maiar. if Sauron could be pulled to the power of the ring then what is stopping other Maiar like him?

[the phantom]

Let's bring this to the real world- do you personally believe the Ring would master you?

Oh sure, most people's first reaction is to exclaim "Yes, of course!" because you've been taught to say so. Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, and all those other smart people said the Ring would master everyone, and the story revolves around the undefeatable and unconquerable Ring. It's just accepted as fact. But really, who did the Ring conquer? Answer- two little hobbits. Some of you may want to toss in Isildur, but he died so quickly after swiping it. Do we really know what would've happened to him?

Do we know for an absolute fact that the Ring would turn Gandalf into a Dark Lord? He said it, but if you've read LOTR you know that Gandalf was not always right. Had he done experiments with the Ring? Had he tested it on other wizards and watched them turn into Dark Lords? No, of course not.

The whole "The Ring corrupts everyone" thing is not an absolute total unquestionable fact within Middle Earth.

Now seriously, I want you to imagine in real life- if someone had a shoe and claimed that the evil that dwelt in it would overcome your mind and will would you really believe it? Let's say you knew it had overthrown the minds of a couple of your friends. Even then, would you really believe that the shoe could master YOU?

If your answer is "yes", then I guess you're just not like me. I remember talking in another thread about how I identified with Boromir, because like him I would not have believed that the Ring could conquer me. I am who I am. No piece of jewelry can change me. Give the Ring to me, and I'll harness it's power and kick Sauron's behind!

Personally, I think it takes a very very rare person to believe that he doesn't have the strength of will to conquer a small piece of metal. Evidently I don't have that type of wisdom, and certainly not that much humility. Lucky for the good guys in LOTR, there were several of these rare weirdo individuals running around.

Now to Saruman- who does he strike you as? A confident-borderline-arrogant Boromir/Phantom type person, or a humble Gandalf/Frodo sort of chap? (btw, if it matters yours truly came up as "Saruman" on a LOTR personality test a while back )

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Hmmmm....a trickier question than it looks. The obvious answer is "yes, of course Saruman thought he could master it? Why else would he have sought it out?" But then another thought occurs to me -- he probably really could have "mastered" it insofar as he could have taken it and used its power to throw down Sauron and set himself up in the Dark Lord's place. Of course, he would then himself have been "mastered" by the Ring insofar as he would have become the new Dark Lord, but even that is really being self-mastered insofar as it was his own selfish desire to be a Power that would have led him to take the Ring in the first place...

So was Saruman really all that wrong in his assumption that he could master the Ring? Galadriel and Gandalf both say tha they could take the Ring and use it to defeat Sauron (not what Sauron would want, so clearly they are saying they can take the Ring 'away' from his will) -- I account that a form of mastery. Of course, they also argue that the Ring would pervert and twist them into figures of corruption and evil, but they also state that it would have worked on their own desires to do this -- so once more, it was their own innermost desires and flaws that would have overmastered them, not really the Ring.

(Is this why Bombadil was immune to the Ring? He was so pure, so entirely devoide of desire for control or sway that it had nothing to work on? That is why Bombadil describes himself as "Master" -- because he is his own Master?)

So, I guess I stick with the obvious answer, but in a more complicated way: Yes, Saruman thought he could master the Ring, because he could master it; that is, he could wrench it from Sauron's control and use it to overthrow the Dark Lord. But then he would have been mastered by himself, at the Ring's prompting...

[Boromir88]

phantom it's good to see ya back here for a little bit. I seriously was beginning to go through withdrawal.

I like the angle you approach this from. I'll still take Gandalf's advice in that over time the Ring would dominate and control you...aye even Tolkien said that in the one moment before the Cracks of Doom, the Ring's influence is at it's greatest and no one had the strength of will to resist it. But, I like the alternative perspective you have created, it was interesting and insightful to read.

Of course the Ring isn't this all corrupting force, if someone had the right mindset, and perhaps knew more about the Ring, they would be able to at least resist and hold off it's proddings for a while (I think that Boromir did this for a rather long period of time). Also another question is whether the Ring would really want to be in the possession of that individual. For example, what would the Ring want to do in the possession of a fox for? How is that going to help it achieve it's goal? How will that help Sauron? So, also I think there is a certain selectiveness about the Ring, it goes after the individuals it feels it can get a grasp over (Boromir and Gollum for example).

Now onto Saruman...ahh Saruman a truly interesting villain he is.

Did Saruman Believe He Could Master The One Ring?

I'd say so:

"We may join with that Power. It would be wise, Gandalf. There is hope that way. Its victory is at hand; and there will be rich reward for those that aided it. As the Power grows, its proved friends will also grow; and the Wise, such as you and I, may with patience come at last to direct its courses, to control it. We can bid our time, we can keep our thoughts in our hearts, deploring maybe evils done by the way, but approving the high and ultimate purpose: Knowledge, Rule, Order; all the things that we have so far striven in vain to accomplish, hindered rather than helped by our weak or idle friends. There need not be, there would not be any real change in our designs, only in our means."
[...]
"And why not Gandalf?" he whispered. "Why not? The Ruling Ring? If we could cammand that then the Power would pass to us...~The Council of Elrond

Saruman really started this process of wanting to 'ape' Sauron, he wanted in essense to be Sauron...and be the knew 'Ruler.' He wanted the power and Sauron knew what Saruman was up to:

But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell: not Saruman, but one more worthy of trust.~The Black Gate Opens

Or, a third alternative: Did Saruman intend to "dissect" the Ring in order to use the knowledge of it to forge a new ring of his own creation?

That may also be a possibility. Certainly I think if Saruman was unable to actually get possession of the Ring he was attempting to create his own ring of power:

He wore a ring on his finger and it was at one time rumoured that he had come near the secret of their making~Home VII: Treason of Isengard

The problem with this quote is that, in the final publication of LOTR, only 'He wore a ring on his finger' is written, the rest of it Tolkien removed, as the Treason of Isengard was an earlier draft. But, also this appears in The Foreward of LOTR:

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annihilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.

Now, this is Tolkien explaining why he didn't feel like the War in LOTR, was like any of the 'Real Wars,' but if we take this 'if it was like the real wars scenario' than we can see that Saruman was studying into ring-lore and was trying to figure out how to create his own ring of power. But, he had some 'missing links in his study' and supposedly only Mordor held those missing links to Saruman creating a true Ring of Power...as in one that could be like Sauron's.

[Mithadan]

I agree that there is no doubt Saruman thought he could master the Ring. A related question is could he have mastered it and how fast? Clearly Sauron was not alarmed when he believed that Saruman had secured the Ring. Look at his response when Pippin is revealed in the Palantir:

Tell Saruman this dainty is notfor him. I will send for it at once.

And then, of all things, Sauron laughs! He was not truly alarmed! Sauron clearly believed that Saruman could not claim the Ring for himself and control it, at least not quickly. To recover it, he sent one Nazgul. Although Gandalf believed that Saruman and Orthanc might have the power to resist a Nazgul, Sauron seemed to think a Nazgul was enough to coerce Saruman with the Ring!

The answer here seems to rest in the fact that it would take time to learn to use the Ring. I am trying unsuccessfully to find the reference but am unable to. Somewhere, Gandalf states that after Frodo claimed the Ring in the Cracks of Doom, if it had not been destroyed the Nazgul would likely have feigned obeiscence to Frodo only to later seize the Ring or bring Frodo to Sauron. Frodo could not learn to control the Ring rapidly. Even Saruman would need some time to learn the use and secrets of the Ring. But what of the principle of the Ring giving its wearer power in proportion to the wearer's stature? If this is the case, Saruman's power with the Ring, particularly given his study of the matter, should have given him significant power. There seems to be a disconnect here. Shouldn't Sauron have been much more concerned?

[Rhod the Red]

"As I argued previously, what he did or did not say was stricly in relation to what Sauron asked. I opine that his free will was suspended in that conversation."

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name? You sure you read the book as well as the note you bring up all the time?

[Raynor]

Didn't Pippin refuse to give his name?

I acknowledge an initial reluctance on behalf of Pippin, whether willed or not. However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him.

[Rhod the Red]

"However, that was quickly overcome seeing that Sauron could command him."

And you establish that also by fiat?

[Raynor]

Rhod the Red, if you find that Pippin crying out Sauron's words in "a shrill and toneless voice" is a testimony to his free will, you are free to do so. Gandalf states that almost certainly Pippin would have divulged all that he knew, to the ruin of them all, if Sauron would have questioned him.

[Rhod the Red]

Yes I know, that has two meanings. Like the effect of Sauron's will is immediate, or delayed. One can take their pick.