I don't understand this either...

[Thinlómien]

This popped again to my mind just a minute ago. I'm in the school library and overheard some of my fellow students speaking about the LotR films. "The third is sooo homoerotic." "Yes, it really is. I can't understand how it can be that homoerotic. The others aren't." "Well, the second's too. Just think of it. The whole film's just Legolas and Aragorn staring at each other."

This wasn't even the first time Iheard something like this. Some of my former classmates kept speculating about relationships between Frodo and Sam or Aragorn and Legolas. I admit that might have been partly to annoy me, but they wouldn't have speculated that if they hadn't noticed a possible connection, however slight that was.

In the biggest and most renown Finnish newspaper, Helsingin Sanomat, there was an article about fan fiction something like year ago. There was a pic from TTT where Legolas and Aragron converse and in the text there was a homoerotic Aragorn+Legolas fanfic quote. The text implied that the fanfic had been inspired by the movies.

Now, where's all this come from? Is there some hidden gay agenda in the movies? Or are the movies unintentionately homoerotic? Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I'm quite at loss with this, and I'd like to hear some opinions.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere?

I think this is the right point. I might be mistaken, however.

Anyway, only one other thing I have to say is, that probably the moments of Aragorn and Legolas staring at each other, or Frodo and Sam, or even Boromir's death scene, are the moments when the deep feelings of the heroes are shown: the purest feelings of friendship, understanding the other one, sharing the burden of the other at least psychically, letting him know that I am his friend and I am here to stand by his side - against the dark things which he has to fight against. In the movie, it is harder to describe these moments rather than in the book - you can just show the characters staring at each other, you cannot describe what they think (unless you use that "resonating voice in my head" trick). And because it seems many people don't understand these feelings, they make their own conclusions about what's going on in that scene.
I don't know if you know older films like Vinnetou, but this is just the same. Vinnetou&Old Shatterhand make themselves brothers, there are these moments like Aragorn&Legolas. I don't think if people speculated about Vinnetou&Old Shatterhand in this way. But it's the same: these are the moments where the audience is shown that they are not just "Hey man we gonna smash these Orcs then you can return home and I'll get hired as mercenary for the Rohirrim militia" meet-on-the-road band of hired killers. There are relationships between them, they support each other, they are even friends to each other. This is what makes Aragorn and even Boromir (who hardly knows him) jump to Gandalf's aid against the terrible demon from the underworld, crying "Elendil!" and "Gondor!" I'm not sure if there is a moment in the movie when Aragorn stares at Merry and Pippin when they realize they are safe after the long pursuit in Rohan, but if it is not, it could be there as well. This is what the scenes show: the characters care for each other, and if someone cannot understand that, it's his problem. So that's about it I think.

[alatar]

Like when viewing clouds, people see what they want. Having watched LotR many times now, I've noticed that PJ is very anti-Penguin.. Have you seen even one penguin in the whole 12+ hours of film? Pretty clear, the statement that he's making...

or

PJ is, in RotK, obviously prophetically showing the coming Penguin Ascendancy. If you look, you'll notice that the Gondorian soldiers look somewhat like penguins. They and their lands are under attack by the hordes of Sauron, which really represent Mankind and Technology and their encroachment into the penguin's niche. The green of the Army of the Dead shows how Mother Nature will, eventually, rise up and set things to rights, saving the penguins from extinction. After this, the penguins will march out of their normal environments and begin to 'push back' against mankind.

PJ's message is obvious, if you know what to look for.

Regarding Aragorn and Legolas: Sometimes I think that if action figure males aren't of the James Bond/Rambo/Schwarzenegger type, where one is a cold warrior that has no emotions beyond anger, except when dealing with a female fling. Relationships with other males are either deadly, as they are competitors, or standoff-ish, as they are 'friends.' You might see a handshake, or even some other 'pat,' but it's clear that the person has no affections or feelings for the other, and, at need, would kill that one as well.

You gotta be tough!

In the TV movie (adapted from Stephen King's novel of the same name) The Stand, towards the end three 'good guys' walk into the valley of death as it were. Each is portrayed as a strong man, though as they walk they take each others' hands and surrender themselves, bravely, to the ministrations of the bad guys. Later, when jailed, one is executed in his cell. The other two clasp hands as they can through the bars.

It's just too cool, as here we have men, obviously tough and not effete nor feminized, showing emotion and feelings towards other men in a brotherly sense. They lost none of their 'manliness' in doing so, nor was the affection intended to be considered romantic.

Is the show of consideration between Aragorn and Legolas, a brotherly thing, being misconstrued as somehow romantic as the audience isn't used to seeing warrior-types showing feelings? I love the scene where Aragorn watches Boromir expire. Here's this tough guy, who just beheaded a big baddie, trying to comfort his brother, then weeping over his passing.

Aragorn loved his 'brother' Boromir, and I don't see it as romantic.

Then again, I was looking for the penguins...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think people are mixing up Erotic feelings and love!

The books clearly states that there is love between the different male charachters, it was love for Aragorn that made the grey company and others walk the path of the dead and so on.

These feelings are not easily potraied in a film, I would imagine. You could make them say it, but I doubt that it would work well. . . there where not one scene in the movies that made me think that the charachters enjoyed each others company in that way, well exept for the scene where the hobbits are all cudly in a bed and Gandalf think it is great to watch. . .

Of course it could be that Tolkien belives that love in its purest form only can be shared betwen two men! Not necesarily sexual. . . .
But I guess Beren and Luthien kind of goes against that theory.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by thinlo

Now, where's all this come from? Is there some hidden gay agenda in the movies? Or are the movies unintentionately homoerotic? Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I think part of it is probably the teenagers having sexual agendas. A lot of teens do see sex everywhere, even where it isn't and never was. I am not one of them, but a lot of them do. It's actually a little disgusting, this obsession with sex.

I think that another factor is that in these unfortunate times, friendship has become very superficial. People are afraid of love because often times, the media overlooks great friendships in favor of romance. It's almost as though true friendships don't really exist for the media...and when they do, they're always between girls. It's socially acceptable for girls to love their friends. Physical contact between girls isn't frowned upon as much as it is between guys...though I still have the memorable experience of being asked if my best friend and I were in love. We just laugh a lot together and aren't afraid to hug each other...but we're both straight and she had a boyfriend at the time that question was asked. Silly thing to ask, if you ask me.

It's a lot worse for men, at least here in the USA (can't speak about in other countries). So many of them, while not strictly homophobic, seem to be mortally afraid to be mistaken for gay...and the problem is intensified by the fact that men are discouraged from being emotional at all.

Anyway, because of this tabboo on contact and even on close friendship, sometimes seeing true, close friendship makes people feel uncomfortable...

And the drought of close friendships, particularly in the media, makes for the possibility that people will make the mistake of assuming love between friends is actually love between significant others.

Middle-earth lacks the social standards of our modern world.

Frodo and Sam are close friends. They (gasp of mock horror!) are able to touch each other. They are not afraid to be emotional together, to share deep feelings of joy and of sorrow and of fear. They, in fact, (NOOOO!) love each other. Because they're FRIENDS.

Aragorn is friends with Boromir. They've been to hell and back together, fought together, and travelled together for a long time. Of course they're friends. By the end, they each come to recognize the nobility in the other. I find it perfectly reasonable that Boromir's death would be emotional for both of them...and yes, Aragorn kisses Boromir's forehead after he passes. (ewwww! ) It's a gesture of respect, grief, and of platonic love. There should not be any kind of issue.

And so Aragorn and Legolas look at each other. Well. You can't expect the Fellowship to travel all that long way without once making eye contact! And they, too, are friends. Does making eye contact with a friend mean that you are in love with him or her? No, and in fact, the question sounds absurd to me.

No one in my close circle of friends had a problem grasping this fact, because we are all the unashamed type of friend. We're close, and as such, are not afraid to hug each other or to cry together...or to make eye contact, .

The trouble is that other people see it and can't understand. They feel uncomfortable. And one of the reflex ways of dealing with discomfort or feelings of awkwardness is to make a joke about it to break the ice...and so they make jokes about the characters being gay. Some people actually look at it and see homosexuality. Some of them may actually be gay, and then it probably is a case of, as Alatar pointed out, seeing what they want to see.

I feel sorry for the people who think that way but aren't gay, though. Because they have never known true friendship.

Whew...that was long, and actually turned into a rant. I think I ought to clarify, though...I have no problem with homosexuality in its rightful place. For instance, I loved Brokeback Mountain. But people not understanding friendship and that whole love=romance thing...or more accurately love=sex thing really bothers me. It's a rant that's been lurking in me ever since I found Tolkien fandom.

To me, the books are practically about that kind of friendship-love. It's something I hold very dear.

[Nimrodel_9]

Or is this all just because teenagers have to include sexual agenda everywhere? Or is it just random that this many people have "noticed" something?

I would have to agree with these two. I could go on and on about this, but I don't have time.
You know, I think that our world is just a little messed up. I mean, some people can pull homosexual stuff from anything. They just can't believe that it is possible for two guys to be good friends and nothing more. They are probably sitting there, watching the movie with their best friend of the same sex, and think nothing of that. It's all very frustrating. I hate it when people bring stuff like that up.

[Lotrelf]

Yes. This all is about teenagers' attitude towads these characters. Neither Professor nor Jackson ever meant to show anything like this. Even in real life it happens. While talking about a fictional character dearly, most friends think I am "in love" with him(most of the time happens with me). But, the thing is to love a character, you don't have to be in love with them.
It's all about the society we live in. People tend to think everything connected to romance etc.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

But, the thing is to love a character, you don't have to be in love with them.
It's all about the society we live in. People tend to think everything connected to romance etc.

Indeed. The notion of "love" in modern times has been corrupted in that any mention of the word tends to be taken in a romantic context. In the books, I take the love between Frodo and Sam as that of brothers.
Legolas had a feeling love for Aragron, as he said to Merry and Pippin,

'For all those who come to know him come to love him after their own fashion, even the cold maiden of the Rohirrim.'

ROTK The Last Debate

Aragorn was such an exceptional man, as a leader, commander, and would-be king, that he inspired what was a brotherly or fatherly love in Legolas and the rest of the Fellowship. Even Éowyn's love toward him was not really romantic. She did not love Aragorn as much as the idea of Aragorn: a strong, resolute, dignified man who was free to pursue his own destiny.

[Liriodendron]

I agree....and even regular romance is dying off too....love = sex.
Their is no term for a subordinate bro....which I guess is what Sam was to Frodo.

[Lotrelf]

Lovely post, Inziladun.
Aragorn was indeed an exceptional man. Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, rest of the Fellowship, and the Gondorians loved him so dearly. �0‡6owyn's love was romantic for him. Though, it did not cause her to go mad for him "that way". She loved him purely, not caring about her own feelings. That's why, after being 'neglected'(for that lack of a better word)she thought of dying.
Frodo and Sam's love has lots images in my mind. It is not only brotherly love that I can think of. There's much more. Sam not only loves Frodo, but he worships him. Frodo, like Aragorn is loved by others immediately. Be it Sam or the rest of Fellowship or even Gollum, they love him dearly. Sam loves him as a parent loves him child or a child loves his parent. As an ordinary person loves God. Their love is all but romantic.
Tolkien's work is so powerful because of devotion, respect and love that these characters have for each other!