Servant or Master?

[Lord Halsar]

In several threads, I have noticed, when people list the "main-players" in Arda, they will always place Melkor(Morgoth) at the top with Sauron usually below him. It may just be my thoughts of Melkor as a "dissatisfying" villain whereas Sauron is my "satisfying" villain, but, I have to ask, does anyone else think that this view of power should be reversed? Melkor always seemed to me as a poor villain. He was overly arrogant. He squandered away his strength on his servants, almost all of whom wound up dead. He had the Silmaril taken right from under his nose. In fact, some of the things I've read about him in the Sil make him sound, dare I say it, pathetic.
Sauron however, he seems like so much better a villain to me. And with Morgoth having decreased so much in strength even by the time of his second capture, who knows? Maybe he was weaker than Sauron after two more ages. I know I'm making some bold statements here, but it's just been what I've come to see in Morgoth from what I've read. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but, hey, that's the human-mind for you.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

I would dare say that Sauron seems more complex a villain because more was written about him, but I think, like Tolkien, that Melkor was more thorough in achieving his goal. When Tolkien described all of Middle-earth as being "Morgoth's Ring,"and then compared it to Sauron's Ring, he likened it to Sauron having put most of his power into a single piece of gold, whereas Morgoth put his power into all gold. With the destruction of that single piece, Sauron was thoroughly defeated, but because it would be impossible to collect and destroy all gold, Morgoth would never be entirely defeated, until the world was remade and his taint "filtered out" of it. The scope of what Melkor did was tremendous, and Sauron was merely a follower of it, not the originator of it.

That said, I do think that Melkor/Morgoth comes across as a less dramatic villain because of the very nihilistic madness that drives him, his hatred of all creation; Sauron is more focused and thus appears more in command of himself and his actions. Tolkien said that Melkor could not stand the simple fact that the world existed, and would have eventually destroyed everything, even his allies, simply to try to achieve an impossible end (impossible because, while he could destroy what was in the world, he could not destroy the fact that the world existed). Sauron was perfectly happy to let the world exist, so long as it existed under his command and by his rules. Villains who appear as lunatics are never as chilling as those who seem perfectly sane, and still pursue a path of villainy. Just my two cents, as always.

[Boromir88]

Lord Halsar, those are some bold statements, but I actually don't think you are too far off the mark.

Who was the better villain? I believe Sauron became the more evil one, or in the very least as evil as Morgoth:

In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible.~Letter 183

It's kind of tricky using Tolkien's letters, because they are reflections and therefor Tolkien at times contradicted himself. So, while it's interesting to read the conscious thoughts of the author, they don't always "line up" with what he wrote. Anyway, in this instance however, I think there is a lot of good "stuff" out there to show Sauron, while not starting out as evil as Morgoth, became more evil (or in the very least just as evil as Morgoth).

There it is in Letter 183 where he sets up a comparison between Morgoth and Satan, but goes on to say that in his story, Sauron represented "as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible."

I draw attention to "evil will," because I think Tolkien's making a point that Sauron's intentions, what he was attempting to do, was more evil than Morgoth's. But, not necessarily was Sauron more "effective."

And taking this from Letter 156 it certainly seems to set both Morgoth and Sauron on the same level:

But in this 'mythology' all the 'angellic' powers concerned themselves with world were capable of many degrees of error and failing between the Absolute Satanic Rebellion of Morgoth and his satellite Sauron, and the faineance of some of the other higher powers or 'gods.'

So, both of them were in "Absolute Satanic Rebellion." Whatever that means, I don't know? Absolute rebellion against Eru? The Valar? Anyway, again, this sets Sauron and Morgoth on par with eachother when it comes to their "evilness."

And in another Letter...

The supremely bad motive is (for this tale, since it is specially about it) domination of other ’free’ wills.~Letter 155

This is what I think makes Sauron a bit different from Morgoth. Tolkien said that Morgoth slipped into shear "nihilism" where he was focused on trashing the entire place. He lost his head, so to say, and just wanted to destroy everything. The problem is Morgoth's "goal" is an unattainable one. Morgoth slipped into a stage where all he wanted complete and total destruction; this was impossible.

Where Sauron on the other hand, never falls into this same nihilistic madness as Morgoth, Sauron kept "relics of positive purposes." Sauron loved Order and Co-ordination (two good things to love), but of course Sauron took it to an excessive level...he took it to the level of thraldom. Sauron therefor doesn't want to trash the entire place, he was a lot wiser than Morgoth (and I'll get to that in a bit), he wants to be the "Dark Lord". He has the "supremely bad motive" of dominating the free wills of others.

At first one might ask...well what is more evil of an intention? Running the world as a Dark Lord and have everyone as your slave or completely destroying it? But, the problem again being, Morgoth's goal was unattainable, so now which one had the more evil (the "wiser") plan?

Which brings me to another key difference between Morgoth and Sauron:

Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanantly 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means and devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures.
Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way, Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.~HoME X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed

Sauron was "wiser" because of hs desire to dominate everyone's "mind and will" and as it's right there Sauron probably knew more about the Music than Morgoth did.

So, based on all this "good stuff," like I said I don't think you're too far off the mark. Good thread idea, this should spark some nice discussion.

[Nerwen]

These are all interesting points people are making... but I wouldn't mind a clarification from the original poster. Lord Halsar, by "better villain", do you mean–

–actually more powerful?
–more evil?
–more successful?
–or just a better character?

[Kuruharan]

Just because the goal is unattainable doesn't make it less evil, in my view.

It also depends on which story Tolkien was referring to. If he was just referring to LOTR it makes a bit of a difference.

[Boromir88]

Just because the goal is unattainable doesn't make it less evil, in my view.~Kuru

Did I give you permission to disagree with me?

Ok, but seriously, is this a debatable topic? Sure is, which is why I look forward to some good discussion, because as you know I am an extremely biased person who will only find the stuff to support my opinion.

It also depends on which story Tolkien was referring to. If he was just referring to LOTR it makes a bit of a difference.

Or myth and story mean the same thing, it's just that Tolkien felt like interchanging the two words. Similar to what he does a lot of times with "orc" and "goblin," switching which one he uses several times in the same paragraph to avoid repetition. It would be extremely annoying to see the same 3 sentences start of with "In my story..." "In my story..." and "In my story..."

So, which one is it? I don't know, but I have found other places where it's questionable as to whether Morgoth was the "#1 evil-man no questions asked." At one time he was at the top, but it's entirely possible for Sauron to leap-frog him.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible

It's certainly possible to parse Tolkien as saying that Sauron was as close to wholly evil as was possible 'in my story' (ie the Lord of the Rings) because that was merely a part of the Myth, one which no longer included Morgoth.

[Nazgûl-king]

While at the end of the Valaquenta in The Silmarillion it says:

In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in the after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the void.

So it seems to me that they are pretty much equal on the scale of being evil, except that for a time Sauron severed Morgoth rather than himself.

[Maedhros_the_Tall]

See I don't know. Just the words used in Nazgul's quote, "shadow" and "ghost" would, in my mind, create the picture of a lesser version of the original, that Melkor was true evil and Sauron, while evil enough to be going on with, was merely a pretender, rather than a second coming. Melkors tribute band, if you will!!

[The Sixth Wizard]

Or even Melkor's adoring little fan.

"Oh wow mister, you're so evil, here, I want to be evil too, rarr!!"

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by The Sixth Wizard

Or even Melkor's adoring little fan.

"Oh wow mister, you're so evil, here, I want to be evil too, rarr!!"

"Go home, Buddy. I work alone."

[Groin Redbeard]

Even though Sauron didn't succeed in his first attempt to control Middle Earth, he sure came close to. The majority of his work was done when he was a spirit, he actually survived after he was killed (pretty amazing). A cool thing about Sauron was that he learned from his mistake and for 3000 years he slowly wore down the might of the Numenoreans and the elves. Now I don't know if he did this because it's all he could do, since he was a spirit, but I thought it was pretty cool the way that he learned from his mistake.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Sauron, devoted servant of Melkor? by lore_master

[modoturan]

I also disagree with the characterization of Morgoth as a "nutcase." His goal of destroying creation was perhaps impossible, but so was Sauron's. Sauron wished to gain absolute control over the minds and wills of others, but how can he do that when those minds and wills have their source in Eru and not in him? You cannot control what you do not own. Sauron can force his slaves to obey, by threat or torture, but he can't make them want to obey. Even his own orcs occasionally attempt to oppose his will, so what's the chance that he'd be able to completely enslave Elves or Men or Dwarves? There will always be rebellion, even if only on the individual level. In this way the minds and wills of others will always be out of Sauron's grasp, and ultimately his ambition is as futile as Morgoth's.

Returning to Morgoth, I think his nihilism is, in a way, basically an extension of Sauron's mindset. Sauron wished to control. In the beginning, so did Morgoth. As Nerwen already posted:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Ilúvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness.

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

He began with the desire of the Light, but when he could not possess it for himself alone, he descended through fire and wrath into a great burning, down into the Darkness.

However, Morgoth realized what Sauron did not: that control is impossible, because the Imperishable Flame is Iluvatar's and no one else's. All the beings that Iluvatar imbued with the Flame possess a free will that is completely independent of Morgoth's own will, and thus forever outside of his control.

Now Morgoth, as we all know, had an enormous ego. He saw that other beings could defy his will, and he hated them for it. That things could exist despite him rather than because of him was insufferable; and it was from this jealousy that his hatred had its source. If he could not control, he would destroy. And in the end, of course, his lust for destruction would fulfill his original lust for power: he would control everything in existence, since he himself would be the only thing left in existence.