A Query...

[Kuruharan]

This may fall into the "unanswerable question" category...

Was there much in the way of commerce that took place between the Free Peoples and the Men of Darkness (I would have put "forces of Darkness" but I think that direct commerce with orcs would probably have been out of the question).

I started thinking about this question from the perspective of if Gondor had much in the way of ocean going commerce but decided to open the question a little more than that.

Examples that I can readily think of are the intermingling that took place (however grudgingly) between Dunland and Rohan.

I also wonder how the peoples of the East learned about the weath of Gondor. Obviously, they had Sauron to spur them on, but might they also have gained some knowledge through trade...?

Going back to Gondor's maritime commerce, the name "Corsairs of Umbar" implies preying upon Gondor's ships, but were these ships engaged in international commerce or in internal commerce?

[alatar]

I assume that goods would have made their way between hostile nations, as we see it today. There may be 'go-betweens' and those that look the other way when goods 'drop off of the truck,' and those that offer 'protection services' for a small piece of the pie. So even if officially there is no trading, surely trading is happening.

[Kuruharan]

So even if officially there is no trading, surely trading is happening.

I'm inclined to agree.

However, the identities of any middle men and their relationships is part of what I'm so curious about.

I could imagine during the time that Gondor controlled Umbar that there would have been surrounding tribes who would have traded with the city and then carried goods further into the hinterland. However, this gets more complex as Gondor's power receded. What sort of middle men could have existed if somebody, for example, wanted to get goods from Gondor to Khand after Gondor's power was restricted to the Porus?

[Bêthberry]

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

If Aragorn ran into so much trouble so quickly into the 4th Age, the existence of these kinds of freelance entrepreneurs might account for some of his troubles in bringing social order about. Who wants taxes inforced upon them?

[Eönwë]

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.

Wait, that deservves its own thread if there is not one already about it. Money.

edit: wait, it does mention money, sorry. Thinking that made me lose focus in what I was saying (Its late now and I'll probably continue tomorrow)

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers." The example of England is particularly appropriate here, especially once England officially renounced the slave trade but still allowed independent naval entrepreneurs to engage in the trade.

You have hit on a very good point Bêthberry. Gondor might have for a time paid the Corsairs of Umbar to stop attacking their vessals, like the European nations did in 1803.

Hmm... and what of the dwarves? I'm pretty sure that they may have had dealings with the Easterlings at one time.

[Eönwë]

Well, Groin, I'm sure in the original Legendarium they did, being evil, but after they became a good race, who knows.

They probably did dthough, because everyone likes a bit of gold in the end (or a the very least some sort of metal) and the dwarves were all tooo happy to sell it (except for the gold) seems like I'm contradicting myself. Anyway, what would they want from the Easterlings?

[Kuruharan]

The same way European countries did it, using the sleight of hand of "privateers."
-Bethberry

I hadn't given that aspect of it much consideration. Smuggling and activities of that nature certain could account for trade between sides...as it often does in times of war.

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade.
-Eönwë

I think the more developed governments would attempt to regulate trade in some way. The regulation of trade is an ancient part of governmental function.

This ivory would have (probably) had to come from elephants (Mumakul)
-Alfirin

Ivory would definitely be a reason to trade with Harad.

I imagine the dwarves of the Blue Mountains trading with the shipbuilders of the Grey Havens for passage (at least) if not ownership of the actual ships they needed to use. After all, just because the elves built ships to the undying lands doesn't mean they didn't also build very sea-worthy ships for sale to the highest bidders for other purposes in the Middle-Earth vicinity. As much as most of them hated boats, the dwarves of the Blue Mountains had spent an age living within sight of the sea. They must surely have gotten over their water fears by then. They could (and would) have easily sailed south far enough to trade for the goods that would maximize their profit from the voyage, as any good trader would.
-radagastly

I have to agree with Legate. I don't think the dwarves ever took to the sea. While I think the dwarves probably were the primary merchants of Middle earth I think their commerce was land based.

Was it linen, woven from the flax plants that every good hobbit family grew in its garden? Clothes couldn't rightly be made from cotton, as cotton seems to raise the same difficulty as coffee climate-wise.

Could silk be harvested from local silk worms, or would it be imported? Was sheep farming a regular occupation amongst hobbits? Pity the poor hobbit who was allergic to wool.

Of what material did Arwen sew her banner?--Esty, I'm sure you can put your finger on this.

Trade need not be prompted solely by luxury items, but by any need.
-Bethberry

Now this is interesting. It reminds me of Justinian importing silk worms to start his own silk industry.

Elves seem the most likely to be the great weavers of Middle earth...but I don't think there is ever any mention of where they obtained their materials.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I wonder... what about tariffs.. or was Tolkiens world full of freedom in trade. He mentions money nowhere.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I think the more developed governments would attempt to regulate trade in some way. The regulation of trade is an ancient part of governmental function.

Actually, I have some information concerning this. And where else than in the Hobbit! See (Smaug to Bilbo):

Originally Posted by Chapter 12: Inside Information

"(...) But what about delivery? What about cartage? What about armed guards and tolls?" And Smaug laughed aloud. He had a wicked and a wily heart, and he knew his guesses were not far out...

This at least looks like a proof that some tariffs existed indeed. Smaug may have lied or not, but he would not have thought of something that did not exist, and he must have presumed that Bilbo well knows what he's talking about - so such economic things were widely known.

[Eönwë]

This might be a bit late but about coffee think of the Arkenstone! Maybe thats why everyone loved it. It provided enough UV for photosynthesis. Aha! a new conspiracy theory by me! Anyway, maybe thats why it glowed. Maybe, WOW (I didn't see this coming) it was a Silmaril.

[Elmo]

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that.

Well, we buy oil from all sorts of unpleasant governments.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

Napoleon outfitted his armies with British made boots. (But they weren't Wellies.)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was it wise for the Gondorians to trade with the men of darkness? Funding the enemy and all that. There is an example of the enemy trying to trade the 'good' side. Sauron attempted to buy Rohirrim horses. They turned him down.

Wise? Whenever did wisdom rule the day? Look what happened to the Land of the Star after they imported Sauron.

And note that the Black Riders, at the gates of the Dwarves and even to Sam's old Gaffer, look to trade gold and money (and Rings!) for information. And they did find the Shire, and so someone did the deal.

[Kuruharan]

Well, yes, but, there is that chestnut about The Hobbit not exactly belonging or fitting in well with the Legendarium.

Maybe, but the fact remains that Tolkien did attempt to incorporate it.

Do you mean instinctive in terms of built into their genes (or evolved) or do you mean part of the inheritance from the initial music/creation?

I'm not sure. I guess it depends on where you think the instinct of "Oh they have neat stuff...how can I get that neat stuff" comes from.