Ordianry folks take on Elves

[Aule]

By the end of the third age there were very few Elves left in ME. Elves just like Dwarves were a race that usually stuck with its own .Had they become so far removed from ordinary men and hobbits lives that they were now just thought to be fairy tale (except amongst the more learned). Is this in your opinion true. Discuss (a bit like an exam question).
Not the most interesting questions asked and might not even be worthy of the books section, but anmswer anyway or face my wrath. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Beren87]

Well one could always use the example of Samwise who's facination with the Elves put them near a mythical status, and I'm sure the other hobbits and children of cities such as Minas Tirith held them in much the same regard.

[Birdland]

It's really hard to put yourselves in the Hobbits' "shoes" regarding Elves. In our own world of mortals, whatever we may think of other cultures and races, we all pretty well know that they eat, sleep, and die, same as the rest of us.

That's not the case with the Hobbits. They know for a fact that there is a race of beings on Middle Earth who are immortal and have magical powers. Shoot, they have even adjusted to the fact that a wizard can pop in every now and then and treat them to a fireworks show.

Now you don't get the feeling that they regard the Elves as some sort of demi-gods. And they don't even seem to react to them with fear and awe, like Thomas the Rhymer in "fair Elf-Land".

If Sam's wish to "see the Elves" is any indication, they are almost regarded as a wonderful tourist destination that most will never get to see, due to the expense of the journey, and the bother of dealing with "foreigners".

While watching the scene in the movie where Frodo and Gandalf discuss the Ring, it struck me how "matter-of-fact" the whole conversation was. Obviously they are worried and scared, but at least Gandalf doesn't have to spend a good half-hour convincing Frodo that Dark Lords, magic Rings, and immortal Elves really exist. To Frodo, that is a given. How many of us would react in the same way?

Gandalf - "That's the One Ring! It is full of dark magic and evil powers!"

One of us - "Magic? Right, Gandalf, what have you been smoking?"

Gandalf - "No, really! It's true..."

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Regarding Frodo's matter-of-fact acceptance of the existence of Elves, Birdland,

I would venture that Frodo was less awestruck than Samwise for the following reasons:

1) Bilbo was Frodo's immediate family. Thus when Bilbo spoke of the Elves met during his adventures this first-hand account made an intimate impact on Frodo. Far different than the sort of well-intentioned admonitions about the preference of cabbages to the Fair Folk that the Gaffer would offer to Sam on the same topic.

2) Despite all Sam's talk about wanting to see Elves, it was actually Frodo who was the greater Elf-seeker, to the point of being called an Elf-friend. Studying their language played a part.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Frodo's day, the long-abandoned Elf Towers were still visible from Undertowers, and perhaps even visible as far away as Michel Delving on a clear day. Hence, even if one did not see Elves personally, there was ample proof of their historical existence.

Gandalf the Grey

[Birdland]

Yes, but Gandalf, it is the very fact Frodo can have knowledge of Elves and their "magic" that struck me as interesting. (Although we accept it too, when we suspend our disbelief while watching the film.)

In most fantasy novels or films, "mortals" usually have to be convinced of the existence of such creatures. All the hobbits - not just Frodo - accept that they live in the "world of Fairie", though they may have never seen an Elf in their life.

Think of our own world, where any suggestion of the supernatural or otherworldly experiences are a matter of speculation, denial, and endless debate. You have to admit that Hobbits have a much different world view then we people of the Seventh Age. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

An interesting sidebar is that through most of Tolkien's book it is not the magical Elves that inspire disbelief in others, but the very un-magical, prosaic Hobbits. Frodo and his friends were a constant source of amazement to most others in Middle-earth. ("Hey, we thought you guys were a myth!") I think it was even Boromir who stated that Halflings were but a tale told to children.

It must be quite a feat to find that in a world of Elves, talking trees and giant eagles, that you are the "fairy-tale". [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Gandalf_theGrey]

Think of our own world, where any suggestion of the supernatural or otherworldly experiences are a matter of speculation, denial, and endless debate. You have to admit that Hobbits have a much different world view then we people of the Seventh Age.

In 1989, I dreamed of a car fire ... well, I wasn't allowed to see the actual fire itself, but I saw the road on which I was travelling, and I saw the new white car which I would in fact end up buying two or three weeks after the car fire ... in between where the fire should have been in the dream, was greyness. Within 24 hours of having this dream, my fuel line broke, the car caught fire while I was driving it, and two strangers saved my life. An hour before the dream came true, I told a witness of my dream, for the dream troubled me.

I've dreamed of other fires also that have come true ... in one case, I even dreamed of the identity of the Halloween teenage arsonist prankster who set a round fire in my parents' lawn ... days later, the culprit I'd identified in my dream admitted it openly on the bus coming home from high school, though I hadn't accused him, nor even spoke one word of fire to him.

I was struck by lightning over the telephone several years ago. Before that, I was a passenger in a car struck by lightning on the highway. This summer, my laptop computer was struck by lightning the moment I pressed the ENTER key to send a print job.

Recently, a couple of Sundays ago, I was standing on the shores of Lake Erie in search of a rare Eider which the news announcers said was spotted in the area. A burst of lightning and thunder cracked above, and I strongly felt "tornado" and began muttering about tornados, unnerving the friends I was with, because they know to take me seriously. Meanwhile, the next day I come to find out that precisely while I was muttering about tornados ... they were in fact touching down just then on the Ohio/Indiana border.

Fire, lightning, dreams that come true ... this is not a fairy tale to me, it's reality, and the name Olórin is one that to my mind suits the events I go through.

Thus my own worldview perhaps more closely matches that of the Third Age than the Seventh, and the perspective therefore of the majority of Seventh Agers eludes me moreso than most.

Gandalf the Grey

[ November 25, 2002: Message edited by: Gandalf_theGrey ]

[Birdland]

Thus my own world view perhaps more closely matches that of the Third Age than the Seventh, and the perspective therefore of the majority of Seventh Agers eludes me moreso than most.

Preachin' to the choir, Gandalf. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Though I long ago gave up the debate aspect.

One can wonder if, as the ages passed, Hobbits clung to the memories of the Elf and Dwarf races, as more and more the "Big Folk" pushed them into hiding and relegated their existence to the status of "moonshine".

If I ever see a Hobbit, I will ask him.

[Aule]

Birdland i like that point about how it was usually the Hobbits that were met with disbelief rather than Elves. I had never thought of it that way before.
Thankyou