The Witch-King - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Nikkolas · 06-23-2008, 10:08 PM

I'm new. Hey all.

I've long liked the character of the Witch-King and yes, I got into LOTR because of the movies. But I'm starteing to try and learn all i can of the true LOTR-verse depicted in J.R.R.'s writings. It's a large complex mythos and I want to understand some things better.

I know the Witch King is just a man and thus can not compete with Maiar be they Gandalf the White level or way lower.

However, how strong is he in terms of the beings below that level? Is he at least the strongest man ever on Middle-earth? If he was indeed one of these "great kings" of the Númenóreans, a race I hear Sauron himself feared, would it not stand to reason that with all those powers plus those he gains in his wraith unlife that he is a bit more powerful than he is usually given credit?
I saw this topic and it looks like he's ranked at the absolute bottom of everyone. I know as I said he's not close to Morgoth (at his higher levels anyway) or Sauron but still, kinda destroying my vision of a powerful second-in-command to Sauron with him being so low.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-23-2008, 10:40 PM

Greetings, Nikkolas! May you find peace in the books more than in the movies. (Evil laughs)

I'm not too sure whether the Ol' Witchking's a Numenorean, though I do remember that the named Nazgul at the beginning of the book was an Easterling. (Don't trifle with Easterling either just cos they seemed to be at the short end of the stick... Easterlings served the first dark lord Morgoth, the master of Sauron,)

Numenoreans were great. But Black Numenoreans had inbred with the Haradrims when the Numenoreans first colonized the Bay of Umbar. (That's where the corsairs of Umbar came from) I would presume that without Sauron's special power, the innate power of the ol' ghoul may not be all that great...

Nikkolas · 06-24-2008, 02:12 PM

So when he became Lord of the Nazgul and second to Sauron, would he be ranked as the strongest Man ever on middle-earth? Or up there anyway?

Morthoron · 06-24-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

So when he became Lord of the Nazgul and second to Sauron, would he be ranked as the strongest Man ever on middle-earth? Or up there anyway?

When he became a Nazgul the WiKi ceased to be a man and was instead a conduit of Sauron's power via the Ring; so, there is no comparative basis between the WiKi and warriors such as Aragorn and Elendil. Considering he was defeated by a shield-maiden of Rohan and a Hobbit (no matter the extenuating circumstances), it leaves something to be desired as far as overt power (but then Smaug was defeated rather easily as well *shrugs*). He certainly believed he was unbeatable, even challenging Gandalf (not the silly masquerade of the movie, but rather a standoff and no direct confrontation -- that aspect will remain conjectural); however, it must be said that Wiki twice fled from the wrath of Glorfindel, so perhaps there is a basis for comparative strengths in that case. Or not. Your guess is as good as mine.

Hot, crispy nice hobbit · 06-24-2008, 10:29 PM

Did the Nazguls really ceased to be Man? Its said that they faded. Seems pretty dubious whether they really "died" and became ghosts. On the physical nature of spirits, Tolkien seems pretty clear. Houseless spirits could not wear Rings. Sauron in spirit form could not rescue his Ring after being cut off by Isildur. He must transform into a more tangible form before physically being able to interact with objects. Even the spirits of dead Elves only reincarnated as Elves, with the exception of Luthien (But then, that was Eru's call). The Nazguls were never Maia; so they could not transform into, say, Huge Red Eyeballs.

The spirits of Edain were said to be beyond the Fate weaved by the Music of Ainur anyway... a gift of the Illuvator. Unless there's prove otherwise that Sauron's power extend beyond death (Quite a feat! Hurin taunted Morgoth that he could not enslave Man's spirit beyond the circles of the world), I'd say that the powers of a Nazgul's its own, albeit increased somewhat by Sauron.

Oh yes, back to the question. WK was undoubtedly the chief instrument of Sauron, probably something of the Right/Left index finger. I'd suppose WK's second in power only to Sauron among his slaves. Yep, even the mighty Oliphaunts probably give him a wide berth... But among the Free People... Hard to determine, since he got killed in direct combat by some two-penny worth of a girl and a sprinkling of midget with hairy feet...

"Keep out: Black Breath" - WK's lodge

Nikkolas · 06-25-2008, 06:01 AM

Does anyone happen to have the passage (I know I've read it) where Gandalf comments on a possible confrontation with the Witch-King? I believe he was rather grim about it and not at all confident of absolute victory.
Way some make it out to be, Gandalf could kill him with total ease.

06-23-2008, 10:08 PM	#1
Nikkolas Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 55	The Witch-King I'm new. Hey all. I've long liked the character of the Witch-King and yes, I got into LOTR because of the movies. But I'm starteing to try and learn all i can of the true LOTR-verse depicted in J.R.R.'s writings. It's a large complex mythos and I want to understand some things better. I know the Witch King is just a man and thus can not compete with Maiar be they Gandalf the White level or way lower. However, how strong is he in terms of the beings below that level? Is he at least the strongest man ever on Middle-earth? If he was indeed one of these "great kings" of the Númenóreans, a race I hear Sauron himself feared, would it not stand to reason that with all those powers plus those he gains in his wraith unlife that he is a bit more powerful than he is usually given credit? I saw this topic and it looks like he's ranked at the absolute bottom of everyone. I know as I said he's not close to Morgoth (at his higher levels anyway) or Sauron but still, kinda destroying my vision of a powerful second-in-command to Sauron with him being so low.

06-23-2008, 10:40 PM	#2
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	The po'erful ol' ghoul Greetings, Nikkolas! May you find peace in the books more than in the movies. (Evil laughs) I'm not too sure whether the Ol' Witchking's a Numenorean, though I do remember that the named Nazgul at the beginning of the book was an Easterling. (Don't trifle with Easterling either just cos they seemed to be at the short end of the stick... Easterlings served the first dark lord Morgoth, the master of Sauron,) Numenoreans were great. But Black Numenoreans had inbred with the Haradrims when the Numenoreans first colonized the Bay of Umbar. (That's where the corsairs of Umbar came from) I would presume that without Sauron's special power, the innate power of the ol' ghoul may not be all that great... __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.'

06-24-2008, 02:12 PM	#3
Nikkolas Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 55	So when he became Lord of the Nazgul and second to Sauron, would he be ranked as the strongest Man ever on middle-earth? Or up there anyway? Last edited by Nikkolas; 06-24-2008 at 02:16 PM.

06-24-2008, 10:29 PM	#5
Hot, crispy nice hobbit Wight Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Troll's larder Posts: 195	Un-man? Did the Nazguls really ceased to be Man? Its said that they faded. Seems pretty dubious whether they really "died" and became ghosts. On the physical nature of spirits, Tolkien seems pretty clear. Houseless spirits could not wear Rings. Sauron in spirit form could not rescue his Ring after being cut off by Isildur. He must transform into a more tangible form before physically being able to interact with objects. Even the spirits of dead Elves only reincarnated as Elves, with the exception of Luthien (But then, that was Eru's call). The Nazguls were never Maia; so they could not transform into, say, Huge Red Eyeballs. The spirits of Edain were said to be beyond the Fate weaved by the Music of Ainur anyway... a gift of the Illuvator. Unless there's prove otherwise that Sauron's power extend beyond death (Quite a feat! Hurin taunted Morgoth that he could not enslave Man's spirit beyond the circles of the world), I'd say that the powers of a Nazgul's its own, albeit increased somewhat by Sauron. Oh yes, back to the question. WK was undoubtedly the chief instrument of Sauron, probably something of the Right/Left index finger. I'd suppose WK's second in power only to Sauron among his slaves. Yep, even the mighty Oliphaunts probably give him a wide berth... But among the Free People... Hard to determine, since he got killed in direct combat by some two-penny worth of a girl and a sprinkling of midget with hairy feet... "Keep out: Black Breath" - WK's lodge __________________ 'He wouldn't make above a mouthful,' said William, who had already had a fine supper, 'not when he was skinned and boned.' Last edited by Hot, crispy nice hobbit; 06-24-2008 at 10:57 PM.

06-25-2008, 06:01 AM	#6
Nikkolas Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 55	Does anyone happen to have the passage (I know I've read it) where Gandalf comments on a possible confrontation with the Witch-King? I believe he was rather grim about it and not at all confident of absolute victory. Way some make it out to be, Gandalf could kill him with total ease.