''Three cheers for Captain Frodo, Lord of the Ring''

It has always never ceased to suprise me the response Gandalf gave to Pippin's excitement over seeing Frodo in good health again, still bearing the ring.

Gandalf: Hush! Evil things do not come into this valley, but all the same we should not name them. The Lord of the Ring is not Frodo, but the master of the Dark Tower of Mordor, whose power is again stretching out over the world! We are sitting in a fortress. Outside it is getting dark.


What exactly was Gandalf afraid of here? Did he believe the Great Eye could reach Rivendell? Was he or others that dwelt there afraid to hear the same of Sauron? Or was Gandalf just self-centred all the time, thinking he governs everyone else's lives?

[Kitanna]

I always took it of a fear of the outside world. What if Pippin said something so rash outside the safety of Rivendell? In the movie isn't it Pippin who gives away Frodo as a Baggins? Pippin's just asking for trouble by saying it. I think Gandalf responded as anyone who fears someone saying too much in the open.

[Rumil]

I think Gandalf is being a bit tetchy, not without some justification!

Here they are deciding the fate of the free world and Pippin is making light-hearted, if not downright silly, jokes.

But remember that Gandalf argued in favour of allowing Merry and Pippin to go on the quest, against Elrond's advice. Maybe he's having some second thoughts at this moment!

Saying the name of a 'Wizard' out loud was traditionally considered a bad move in some cultures, as it somehow focussed their attention on you, even at a considerable distance. I can't offhand think of anywhere where this is clearly stated in LoTR but might have been at the back of the Prof's mind when he was writing this?

[Inziladun]

Here they are deciding the fate of the free world and Pippin is making light-hearted, if not downright silly, jokes.

Probably so.
Gandalf may have thought that Pippin simply needed reminding of the deadly peril and dark days ahead. Gandalf also knew of the power the Ring had already attained over Frodo, and may have been reacting to the idea of Frodo claiming it for his own (as of course, did happen).

[Groin Redbeard]

When Gandalf is saying this, I don't picture him as glaring and talking with a raised voice at Pippin. Instead I picture it as a grandfather calming down a kid who has gotten too excited. Nobody knew better than Gandalf about extraordinary evil Sauron and to take something so light heartily would be cause a reaction from him.

My brothers and I always used to go outside and play war with each other, and not seeing it's horrors we took it very light heartily. My dad on the other hand has seen carnage and the terrible things that can occur, and he would often gently rebuke us for cheering during an old WWII film at bombs and shells exploding.

Originally Posted by Rumil

Here they are deciding the fate of the free world and Pippin is making light-hearted, if not downright silly, jokes.

Did Gandalf not make light-hearted comments of the gentle treatment given by Sauron to prisoners in the Dark Tower in The White Rider?

To me Gandalf did not want anyone to celebrate anything until the Ring was destroyed and Mordor overthrown permanently. He may have feared Sauron at all times, but in the comfort of Rivendell, where elves freely be merry and sing songs (sometimes overly merry ones), why did Gandalf overreact?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Did Gandalf not make light-hearted comments of the gentle treatment given by Sauron to prisoners in the Dark Tower in The White Rider?

Do you mean this?

But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower.

I don't think that's terribly light-hearted, Mansun.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Do you mean this?



I don't think that's terribly light-hearted, Mansun.

All posters think, and the thoughts behind their thinking differ according to their own interpretation of the problem. It was slightly hypocritical of Gandalf, to my mind, since his intitial logic suggested no humour whatsoever is allowed linking with that of the Dark Tower.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Saying the name of a 'Wizard' out loud was traditionally considered a bad move in some cultures, as it somehow focussed their attention on you, even at a considerable distance. I can't offhand think of anywhere where this is clearly stated in LoTR but might have been at the back of the Prof's mind when he was writing this?

I think there is indeed meant to be a version of this belief in Middle-earth; look at the way the the Men of Gondor call Sauron "the Nameless One".

Originally Posted by Morthoron

They were resting before a journey that might have taken all their lives. This was not some trivial comedic romp, and so boo-hoo the poor hobbits were prevented from making ignorant jests.

To nitpick: this was prior to the Council of Elrond , so the question of what to do with the Ring had not been settled. What Gandalf could be certain of was that the Ring was dangerous and that a major war was coming– which would affect the hobbits along with everyone else.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The Hobbits really had no reckoning about the true power of Sauron. Gandalf, as both a leader and father-figure to the young hobbits, had every right to put Pippin in his place.

And Gandalf doesn't appear to be saying it in anger (even though we know he is capable of this). I think he's meant to be rightly concerned that Pippin doesn't take the situation seriously enough.


Mansun, you have me perplexed. You cited this quote (from The White Rider) as an example of Gandalf indulging in light-hearted whimsy about the prospect of Sauron torturing the hobbits:

But let us not darken our hearts by imagining the trial of their gentle loyalty in the Dark Tower.

When I asked you what on earth you thought was so lighthearted about it, you responded with this quote (from Many Meetings):

Gandalf has been saying many cheerful things like that.

Now, that's Pippin's reply to the quote from Gandalf that started this thread. It has nothing to do with the other quote from The White Rider. Yet your placement of it suggests that it's meant to be an answer to my question.

Explain, please.

EDIT: Look, if you use quotes to support your argument, it's best to explain why they support it. What is self-evident to you may seem like a complete non sequitur to someone else.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Rumil

Saying the name of a 'Wizard' out loud was traditionally considered a bad move in some cultures, as it somehow focussed their attention on you, even at a considerable distance. I can't offhand think of anywhere where this is clearly stated in LoTR but might have been at the back of the Prof's mind when he was writing this?

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think there is indeed meant to be a version of this belief in Middle-earth; look at the way the the Men of Gondor call Sauron "the Nameless One".

I believe it came into vogue in the Dark Ages (circa the 10th Century):

ARTHUR:
Cut down a tree with a herring? It can't be done.
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Aaaaugh! Aaaugh!
HEAD KNIGHT:
Augh! Ohh! Don't say that word.
ARTHUR:
What word?
HEAD KNIGHT:
I cannot tell, suffice to say is one of the words the Knights of Ni cannot hear.
ARTHUR:
How can we not say the word if you don't tell us what it is?
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Aaaaugh!
HEAD KNIGHT:
You said it again!
ARTHUR:
What, 'is'?
KNIGHTS OF NI:
Agh! No, not 'is'.
HEAD KNIGHT:
No, not 'is'. You wouldn't get very far in life not saying 'is'.

Ummm...sorry, the thread was getting unnecessarily heavy.

But anyway, there are plenty of folk traditions against referring to the devil or god aloud (or speaking 'ill of the dead', for instance). There was a prohibition among the Israelites (and Jews afterwards) against speaking the real name of God (Tetragrammaton), and there have been similar superstitions elsewhere against speaking the real name of the devil (hence slang like Scratch, and Old Nick), and in Ireland, if one must speak of the Daoine Sidhe or the Faery Folk at all (which is not wise to do in any case), then one should say "'gentry', or else daoine maithe, which in English means good people" according to Yeats.

I'm sure such traditions might have been considered by Tolkien and used in one form or another (such as the Noldor no longer saying the name 'Melkor' and only referring to him as 'Morgoth').