Future nazgûl: good or evil Men?

[Gordis]

This thread has branched off this discussion on the nature of the Rings we had here

Originally Posted by Vairë

The nine rings for mortal men would not need to be anywhere near the potency of the three or even the seven. Men, especially kings of men, tend to be proud, ambitious, hubristic in a rediculously short life span (that is, compared to other races). Doesn't take much to put them over the edge; they can be easily tempted to avarice. Also, just a little *magic* (Galadriel might have a problem with my use of the word) would go a long way with Men. Maybe the Men's rings are not identified with an element, but with some compound or are a lower order ring connected to the greater ones only by Sauron's binding-verse. There were many other rings in the earlier Age; any one of them would have been too much for a Man to handle, don't you think?
Just wanted to put this quirky idea forward. Hope it sparks some debate!

Originally Posted by Gordis

Vairë, I think you underestimate Men - and without good grounds.

After all, Aragorn was a Man, and a great man, (and the greater you are, the greater is the pull of the Ring), but he did resist even the lure of the One: where Boromir and Isildur before him had failed.
The future nazgul were great Men as well, but they were at a grave disadvantage: they had no idea about the nature of the Rings they were offered. They didn't know the peril as the Elves kept the matter of the Rings and Sauron's involvement in it secret.
By the way, the idea that they took the Rings because of "avarice", "greed" and "without questions" in not supported by any Tolkien's writings. It is an invention of the movies, that tend to simplify things and represent Men as weak and greedy.

Anyway, the Nine Rings were not made for Men, but for Elves (as well as the Seven and the Three). They undoubtedly count among the 20 Great Rings, in contrast to the Lesser rings made before. Great Rings were able to prolong the lives of mortals - untill they faded. That was a thing that the Lesser Rings couldn't do. All the Great Rings (save the Ruling Ring) had their proper gems, while the lesser were plain.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I will have to disagree, Gordis, Men knew full well that an enchantment lay on the Rings, and they used them quite readily to gain wealth and power, and through avarice and lust for dominion Sauron entrapped them:

Clearly, the implication here is that Man is more prone to evil, to avarice and to the snares of power, more so than any other race.

Likewise, it is evident that Men used the Rings as tools to increase their wealth and power, and that Men were quite aware of the abilities the Rings bestowed; however, it is also plain that, like any other addict, they ignored the painful side effects, and blithely went on using the Rings without concern for consequences. They may not have been aware of the end result, but they certainly would know the toll the Rings were taking.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I will have to disagree, Gordis, Men knew full well that an enchantment lay on the Rings, and they used them quite readily to gain wealth and power, and through avarice and lust for dominion Sauron entrapped them.

Originally Posted by Gordis

The Nine Men knew it were Elven Rings of power and thus surely enchanted.
What they didn't know was that the Rings were corrupted by Sauron and that he possessed the Ruling Ring, thus gaining access to their thoughts and their souls, while they wore the Nine.
The Elves made the Rings for themselves and were eager to use them for their own ends - to "embalm" things, to prevent fading etc. Had the Elves used them, they would have been entrapped in the same way as the Nazgul. What prevented them from using the Rings was only the knowledge of Sauron's treachery: the Elves took off their Rings and didn't use them in the Second Age because they knew it was perilous while Sauron had the One. Men didn't possess such info.

As for intentions, it is clear that at least some of the Men had been well-meaning from the start:

Actually it shows that between Dwarves and Men, Men were more easily corrupted, while Dwarves proved practically immune to the Rings. Thus Men got weaker Rings and more rings than the Dwarves. Here is the whole quote:

As for "snares of power" etc. we know what certain Elves and Maiar are capable of...

Once they started using the Rings it was next to impossible to stop: that was the whole point of the snare. And Sauron, gradually working on the Men's minds through the One, succeeded to corrupt them and to change their mentality, so their good purposes didn't last long. But had Elves or Maiar been in the Men's place, it would have happened with them as well. None was incorruptible, even Dwarves (to a certain extent). Gandalf feared to take the Ring himself, as did Galadriel, just because they knew that.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Gandalf is referring to the Rings in general, and seemingly more regarding the One, and not specifically to the Nine. Gandalf does not indicate that any of those who became Nazgul had any good intentions whatsoever. In my reading, it seems plain that Sauron chose the Nine ringbearers shrewdly as Men having the exact temperment and greed to eventually become his Ulairian thralls.

Hmmm...the Rings heighten a man's abilites, virtues and vices -- what men are predisposed to, so the Ring works on; therefore, it seems plain that the Nine Ringbearers, already great and evilly disposed men of their lands (I believe it says somewhere that the WiKi was a sorceror of note prior to wearing a Ring), used the Rings to heighten their own aspirations. You seem to be forgiving the Men all their trespasses and imputing to the Ring all eventual evil; on the contrary, the Ringwraiths were chosen precisely for the evil that already was in their hearts.

TBC

[Inziladun]

I find it hard to sympathize with either the Nazgûl betrayed by the Nine, or the Dwarves who possessed the Seven.
Morthoron seems to overall have the right of this. The desire of power beyond one's innate abilities is never represented as a wholly positive virtue in Tolkien's world. He said as much in Letter # 131:

With the aid of Sauron's lore (the Elves) made Rings of Power ('power' is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales, except as applied to the gods).

Men seem to have wanted the Nine to gain Power for its own sake, evidenced by what they used them for: to be invisible, to see things in the shadows that were hidden from others, to increase their stature among their peers. What 'good' reason could they have had for wanting the Nine, regardless of their character before they received them? Sauron appears to have basically said, "Here are some magic rings, use them as you will, discover their powers". And so they did.
I don't think Men, however, were more vulnerable to 'avarice' then the Dwarves. It is stated that inflaming their desire for wealth was the only power exercised over the Dwarves by the Seven. Their 'immunity' to the other effects of the Rings though, was only due to their fundamental makeup and not something they were able to consciously effect.
Even the Three were not completely 'good': they too enhanced the powers of the possessor, but it seems the Elves were able to use the Three because they were somewhat protected from corruption by the unnatural power they had gained by the underlying purposes of them: preservation and healing, as stated by Gordis.
The Nine and Seven had no such redeeming qualities, and could have been nothing but what they were: instruments of Sauron to aid in his dominion of ME.
I hope I didn't miss something important from the other thread. That's a lot of posts.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Gandalf is referring to the Rings in general, and seemingly more regarding the One, and not specifically to the Nine. Gandalf does not indicate that any of those who became Nazgul had any good intentions whatsoever.

I have to disagree. Gandalf speaks of the great Rings in general, but what mortal but the nazgul had become "in the end invisible permanently", had become a wraith? Not a single one, only the Nine. Any information Gandalf relates could only refer to the fate of the nazgul, otherwise it would be idle speculation. Yet it is not- Gandalf speaks with full knowledge.

Actually this passage by Gandalf reads like a lament for someone he knew well; one even gets an impression that Gandalf speaks as first-hand witness. And as written, it was exactly the case. This is a very old element of the story, as can be gleaned from the drafts published in HOME 6. Originally, all the wizards were Men, not Maiar, and the Wizard-King (Witch-King in the published story) was "the most powerful of the wizards of Men", Gandalf's boss. Most likely, Gandalf referred to him in this passage, having been witness to his fall to the Ring.

Now, in the published story, Gandalf, of course, is a Maia who came to ME about three thousand years after the nazgul had become wraiths. Yet the passage remains as it was written.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

(I believe it says somewhere that the WiKi was a sorceror of note prior to wearing a Ring),

Nay, not prior to the Ring. The quote you seemingly have in mind is Gandalf's words in LOTR:

‘Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dûr the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls,’ said Gandalf. ‘King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgûl, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.’

It refers to Angmar's period, when the WK had been a wraith for about 3000 years already.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

In my reading, it seems plain that Sauron chose the Nine ringbearers shrewdly as Men having the exact temperment and greed to eventually become his Ulairian thralls
Hmmm...the Rings heighten a man's abilites, virtues and vices -- what men are predisposed to, so the Ring works on; therefore, it seems plain that the Nine Ringbearers, already great and evilly disposed men of their lands (I believe it says somewhere that the WiKi was a sorceror of note prior to wearing a Ring), used the Rings to heighten their own aspirations. You seem to be forgiving the Men all their trespasses and imputing to the Ring all eventual evil; on the contrary, the Ringwraiths were chosen precisely for the evil that already was in their hearts.

Nay, the rings not only heighten someone's abilities. If it were only this, why would Gandalf and Galadriel fear to wield the Ring? The problem is that the Rings corrupt. The One corrupts because it contains a goodly portion of Sauron's power and will, it is part of Sauron himself. The Nine corrupt because through them the very same Sauron (who has the Ruling Ring) gets access to the very mind of the possessor of one of the Nine: corrupts and twists it. Good intentions may remain at first, but they would be carried through by evil means, then the very intentions would turn evil.
Tolkien explains in L#246:

Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
[The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']

The Rings were weapons of psychological warfare, able to corrupt virtually anyone. They were used by Sauron to make the greatest Men of their time his servants - people who would have never served him otherwise. They were not meant as rewards to faithful servants, evil by their own choice, they were too precious for that - after all, Sauron had only nine, he had to choose with care.

When choosing a Ringwraith Sauron had to consider two things:
1.The importance of the country the nazgul represented, which would get an immortal leader and would most likely be also enthralled to Sauron for all eternity.
2.The value of the man himself. Here he could go for an outstanding man even if he wasn't bringing his country along with him - an able sorcerer or an outstanding warrior, who merited to be given one of the nine Rings and become an immortal servant of the Dark Lord.

Evil or good intentions of the future nazgul are immaterial in all this - whoever they were at the start they would turn evil anyway. And the best servants would be Men of integrity, originally noble and good. Like Isildur. Or Aragorn. Or Boromir.

By the way, Morthoron, I have read your "Tales of a Dark Continent". Great story, great settings - I loved it.
But you know, your Cui-Baili had all the makings of a nazgul, if Sauron only managed to thrust a Ring on him. He was a great man, ruler of a great country, he had enough problems to wish for some additional power. Strange that Sauron let pass such a golden opportunity. Khamul, by contrast, as you depict him, was not much of a prize - why waste a ring on such a scoundrel? Such like are ten a penny in every generation.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

on the selection of Nazgul to be:
Wasn't there something about Sauron giving power's without rings to two Black Numernoreans who went on to become great cheiftans amoung the Haradrim? I seem to recall, whne reading this passage that it sounded like Sauron would have liked to number them amoung his Nazgul but had run out of rings by then.

You seem to refer to Herumor and Fuinur mentioned in the "Rings of Power and the Third Age". I also think that by the time of the Downfall, Sauron had no Rings left.
Otherwise, one would have been handy for Ar-Pharazon.

[Gordis]

Here is what Morthoron replied to the previous post

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Interesting concept, but I still disagree with you. Here is a footnote from Letter#156:

And another regarding the amplification of personal attributes in Letter#131:

These quotes, taken in conjunction with previous quotes I offered from 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age' lead me to the conclusion that Sauron chose those Men who were more apt to be led into temptation (i.e., those displaying the attributes of greed and a lust for power). These would not be Men of the mold of a Faramir or Aragorn, noble and good and not prone to corruption, rather Men already exhibiting evil tendencies: vicious warriors, sorcerors (the word 'sorcery' nearly always connotes evil in Tolkienic jargon), and avaricious kings (the Sauronic Numenoreans referred to above).

Ockham's razor. The easiest path is the one of least resistance. We know that at least three of the Nazgul were Numenoreans (whom Tolkien identified as 'wicked kings' and Sauronic), and Khamul was an Easterling, and they seem to have been ever under the subjugation of Sauron. Even you agree in least in part the means by which Sauron chose the Ringbearers:

An able 'sorceror' (like the Black Numenorean Mouth of Sauron) would be evil, as sorcery, or more particularly Necromancy, was always considered evil in Middle-earth.

Aragorn, like Faramir, rejected the Ring. Isildur and Boromir could not. This denotes characteristic virtues for the former, and fatal flaws in the latter that could be twisted to Sauron's will. But I see your point -- it's just that it seems more likely that a truly good and noble character would not associate with Sauron in the first place, and a wise man would always question gifts from a dark source.

Thanks for the kind words. That story was a pleasure to write. I don't know where you read it at (its posted on at least two sites), but there is a companion piece 'The Quest of the Three Kindreds' floating about as well.

As far as the Ring going to Khamul, he was, of course, a chieftain of the great confederation of tribes eventually to be known as the Balchoth (and save for some bad luck, and miscalculation of his enemies strength and cunning, could have been emperor of all lands east of the Orocarni Mountains). If you remember, the Ring was offered to Cui-Baili's father, Cui-Ealain, who rejected the embassy of Mordor (wisely on his part, but it was to cause his death). Had Sauron offered the Ring to a later generation, he might have caught Cui-Baili at a weak moment at the end of his life, but domination or avarice was not necessarily motivational factors for Cui-Baili, so it really wouldn't have worked.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I find it hard to sympathize with either the Nazgûl betrayed by the Nine, or the Dwarves who possessed the Seven.
Morthoron seems to overall have the right of this. The desire of power beyond one's innate abilities is never represented as a wholly positive virtue in Tolkien's world. He said as much in Letter # 131:

Actually we must distinguish what we are talking about: 1. our ability to sympathize with Tolkien characters, 2. Tolkien’s own assessment of them in the Letters etc. or 3. (I don’t even know how to put it) maybe what we perceive as objective view…

1. Our ability to sympathize with characters varies greatly. You find it hard to feel sympathy for the Nine Men and the Dwarves who got the Seven, while I am able to sympathize with almost anyone: certainly the nazgul, Boromir, Denethor, Saruman, Isildur, Ar-Pharazon, and even sometimes (though it is harder) with Gollum, Grima, Lotho, the Mouth, Sauron, Morgoth and Feanor.

2. Tolkien assessment of good and evil should certainly be taken into consideration, even it it differs from our own views. Yes, for Tolkien “power” is an ominous word, and those who desire “power beyond the measure of their kind” are condemned. Also he strongly condemns hubris and impatience. He is all for humility and patience. Yet, even with these standards, I feel he is a bit partial to his characters: there are his favorite ones who get a lot forgiven. Take his good Aragorn. His goal in life? To become King of the reunited Kingdom. Isn’t it desire for power? Now as to “beyond the measure of his kind” – sorry, but he brought an army of Dead to Pelargir, to fight the living. When the Witch-King had done something similar (sent the Wights to the Barrows of Cardolan), he was universally blamed. And so on.

3. An objective view perhaps is unattainable, but we may try…

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Men seem to have wanted the Nine to gain Power for its own sake, evidenced by what they used them for: to be invisible, to see things in the shadows that were hidden from others, to increase their stature among their peers. What 'good' reason could they have had for wanting the Nine, regardless of their character before they received them?

There is a great selection of possible decent reasons: to fight Sauron’s magick (same reasons as Gandalf and Galadriel have in LOTR), to become Kings and/or to marry beloved women (same reason as with Aragorn), to defend their countries (same as Baromir and Denethor), to promote progress, order and technology (same as Sauron and Saruman). Even to try and prolong Men’s lives is a worthy reason –aren’t we all striving to do this even now? Yes, in Tolkien’s world it is frowned upon, as it is against the Design of Eru, but then the Elves who forged the Rings and the ones who used the Three in the Third Age to prevent fading or for other things are at least as guilty – in fact much more, because they knew full well what exactly they were doing and whose know-how they were using.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Sauron appears to have basically said, "Here are some magic rings, use them as you will, discover their powers". And so they did.

It may have been like that with Easterling and Southron nazgul. They had hardly heard about the designs of Eru, about the Valar etc. while in the Second Age Sauron of Mordor was regarded as a worthy ally, benefactor, if not as God. Why question his gifts?

Yet with Numenorean nazgul it had to be far harder: Sauron was the Enemy, and what is more, recently conquered enemy. Pride, if nothing else, wouldn’t allow them to listen to him readily or turn to his side willingly. I don’t believe Sauron had approached them straight-on, most likely he had come in disguise to thrust the rings upon his chosen victims. He could pose as an Elf, refugee of Eregion: “Please keep this Elven ring, Lord, it is the last of the Nine…Sauron hunts me, but he mustn’t get it,” or he could invent another scheme. Sauron was very clever and very sly. The fact that the Elves chose to keep all the matter of the Rings secret from their allies the Numenoreans did help Sauron’s designs a lot. A timely warning from the Elves could have alerted the future nazgul, but then again, the Elves had no idea about Sauron’s new plan to give rings to other races. They didn’t know Men were in danger.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I don't think Men, however, were more vulnerable to 'avarice' then the Dwarves. It is stated that inflaming their desire for wealth was the only power exercised over the Dwarves by the Seven. Their 'immunity' to the other effects of the Rings though, was only due to their fundamental makeup and not something they were able to consciously effect.

Yes, I agree. Rings work on one’s fundamental desires: power and long life for Men, slowing Time and preservation for Elves, riches for Dwarves, wondrous gardens for hobbit gardeners, fish for Gollums. The Dwarves were fundamentally different from Elves and Men – it seems they had no access to the Spirit World whatsoever. Maybe that’s why it was rumored among Elves that Dwarves had no souls…

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Even the Three were not completely 'good': they too enhanced the powers of the possessor, but it seems the Elves were able to use the Three because they were somewhat protected from corruption by the unnatural power they had gained by the underlying purposes of them: preservation and healing, as stated by Gordis.

Elves were able to use the Three only AFTER Sauron lost his Ring. In the Second age they were afraid (and rightly) to wear their Rings even for a minute. But they were afraid only because they knew about the existence of the One and that Sauron had it. The Nine Men didn’t know about it, so they got caught. According to Sauron’s original plan, Elves would have been in the nazgul’s place.

I have to go, I will reply to Morthoron later…