Numenoreans attacking the Valar

[Vultur]

If the Valar are so incredibly powerful, why did they need Eru's help to fight off the Numenoreans?

The herald of Manwe says to Feanor (in reference to his calling Morgoth a Vala) that he could never overcome any of the Valar, "not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art." Surely no mortal Man could come close to the power of Feanor, and the Valar (not being purely physical beings) coud easily avoid assault by armies. So, why couldn't the Valar have done it themselves? Or are they really that weak?

I'm imagining the scene in Valinor:

AR-PHARAZON: Ha! I claim this land! Come out and fight, you cowards!

ELVES OF VALINOR: Aaagh! *flee*

VALAR: Oh crap! Clearly we can't hope to fight a bunch of upstart mortals! Yo, Manwe, can you get Eru on the line?

AR-PHARAZON: ...come on? Is anybody home?

MANWE: Help! Mayday! SOS!

ERU: Oy! What sort of poor excuses for Powers are you? Can't you guys handle my Younger Children yourselves?

MANWE: ...no.

ERU: Ah, well, ok then. Guess I have to do everything myself. *buries Ar-Pharazon in rockslide, sinks Numenor, changes shape of world, etc.*

...OK, I'm sure it wasn't like that, but what was the deal there?

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I don't believe they "needed" the help.
Ar-Pharazon's actions were so egregious
I think they, in effect, needed a ruling/approval
by Eru to take the step of destroying Numenor
and most of the Numenoreans.

[Pitchwife]

I think the Valar felt that they didn't have the authority to violently repel Ar-Pharazon's invasion, as that very probably would have included killing quite a number of Ilúvatar's Children - which none of them (excepting Morgoth) has ever dared.
So Manwe's call to Ilúvatar was probably rather something like: "Look what these brats of yours are doing! Don't you think you should deal with this problem yourself?"

[LadyBrooke]

To throw out a metaphor (which I'm a big fan of) consider Eru as the parents in the equation, the Valar as the eldest siblings, Elves in the middle, and Men as the slightly spoiled bratty youngest sibling (Note: I don't think all youngest siblings are brats).

Now if you're the eldest sibling, and you notice the brat is beating the door to the room you and your middle sibling are in and trying to beat you all up, if you're smart you're not going to simply go over and beat the twerp over the head because then you'll be in trouble. No, what you do is make sure that you look like the victim here. Viola! Problem solved without you getting in trouble, and possibly making you look like a model child.

[Vultur]

OK, thanks, that makes sense.

(I had always wondered if the herald of Manwe was stretching the truth a bit with the 'none of the Valar etc. etc.' quote...)

[the phantom]

Didn't Tolkien say that Ar Pharazon and the Numenoreans had put together the greatest army the world had ever seen?

Now, wouldn't that include any army that Melkor ever had? And the army that came from Valinor to finally put down Angband?

If so, how can we assert that the Valar were capable of dealing with the situation?

And as far as the chap that said "For none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Ea", he was full of crap. A Vala is not some special unkillable race. A Vala is just an Ainu, and if an Ainu becomes incarnate then he can be killed.

Fingolfin wounded Melkor's foot permanently. Thorondor scarred him. He was open to harm. So the fact is Feanor and the Noldor were perfectly able to overcome Melkor. It could have been done. They came darn close a couple times. Perhaps they would have succeeded if Mandos hadn't doomed them to failure.

If the herald had said "For none of the Valar will thou overcome..." it would've been more accurate.

Unless of course he was referring to the fact that Melkor and his works and stain could never be completely eradicated by Feanor, but seeing as not even the Valar could do that it hardly seems like a point worth making.

[littlemanpoet]

Whereas I'm sympathetic with the notion that the Valar ought not to be faulted for the destruction of Beleriand, is it realistic (within the confines of Tolkien's cosmos) to hold that Morgoth had enough power by this time to pull off such a destruction?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Whereas I'm sympathetic with the notion that the Valar ought not to be faulted for the destruction of Beleriand, is it realistic (within the confines of Tolkien's cosmos) to hold that Morgoth had enough power by this time to pull off such a destruction?

It is hard to visualize what really happened during The War of Wrath since it's described briefly and in in a very distant and mythological manner. What is the story behind the text published in the Sil by the way? Is it a complete (early) JRRT text, or has CT interpolated anything into it? Anyway, I don't see how the army from Aman could or would destroy the very earth unless by some arcane maiaric powers, and if so, weren't they rather heavy on the hand?

I hardly think Morgoth could command the earth to rend either, but when the army out of Aman broke Morgoth's persona and wrestled Middle Earth out of his grasp, the earth was somehow broken too. I imagine the fall of the Dark Lord was followed by cataclysmal geological events such as terrifying earthquakes with fiery chasms opening up, huge tsunami waves rolling onto the shores, volcanic eruptions, all kinds of mayhem. This probably relates to what we are told in HoME X where it's described how Morgoth became incarnate to identify himself with the 'hroa' of Middle Earth, in order to wholly make himself master of it. It was because of this his vast powers became dispersed which I suppose is a metaphor for the seemingly ever-present evil in the world. The book's title "Morgoth's Ring" refers to how all of Middle Earth became what the One Ring was to Sauron, that is, a sort of materialisation of his powers. I believe that the destruction of Beleriand happened because of this close relationship between Morgoth and the very earth. Somehow.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What is the story behind the text published in the Sil by the way? Is it a complete (early) JRRT text, or has CT interpolated anything into it?

It is pretty much verbatim the conclusion of the old Quenta Noldorinwa of 1930, which is why it's so compressed and 'distant.' Although T actually recopied this half-chapter into the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion manuscript, he made almost no alterations. CT's editorial hand did little besides the change from "Manwe's son Fionwe" to "Manwe's herald Eonwe."

[Ulmondil]

I remember reading in the Book of Lost Tales that although the Númenóreans were in early times a peaceful people, their weapons, armour, and horsemanship were unsurpassed by any, save the Valar.

I interpret the passage as saying that no Eldar could surpass Ar-Pharazon's invading force by martial prowess alone and snce the Valar could not/would not take up arms agains Eru's children, they had no choice but to defer to him.

[littlemanpoet]

Well said. And welcome!