Nazgûl Purgatory

[Inziladun]

Forgive me if this has been discussed here previously. I couldn't find anything recent, but nearly everything has been brought up on this forum at some time or other.
Not too long ago, while looking for a suitable P of F quote I stumbled upon this:

'No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. 'The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safer not to. Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side.'

(emphasis added) TT The Choices of Master Samwise

The other side? Of what? Somehow Gorbag doesn't seem to be speaking of death there. I'm reminded of the well known quote from the Witch-king:

'Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye.'

ROTK The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Gorbag and the Black Captain appear to be referring to the same thing.
The question is, what is this they reference? A place of physical and spirtual torture? 'Skin the body off you' certainly seems to indicate physical death, but the Lord of the Nazgûl states his threat is not to kill. Consciousness apparently survives in both cases.
Thoughts?

[Elmo]

Was Gorbag not just employing some sort of orcish black humour? When you the Nazgul kills you you'll be cold in the afterlife because it will have taken your skin in this life. hahaha sounds hilarious.

I'm sure the houses of lamentations are the torture chambers in Barad-Dur.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Was Gorbag not just employing some sort of orcish black humour? When you the Nazgul kills you you'll be cold in the afterlife because it will have taken your skin in this life. hahaha sounds hilarious.

I suppose it's possible, but the tone of the words didn't seem humorous to me. He seemed to be genuinely fearful.

[Boromir88]

Interesting find and questions. I would not under estimate the possible spiritual, or some kind of connection to the parallel world of the Wraiths - living in both the seen and the unseen. "The houses of Lamentation" being in this "other side" Gorbag refers to, and is a place that does not sound like it would be humorous to be in.

I wonder about a mythological reference too, because there were 5 rivers that seperated Hades from the world of the living. The most well known is the River Styx, the River of hate. However, there is also Cocytus - the river of lamentation and the myth to this river is interesting considering the question. It was on the banks of the river of lamentation where the unburried wandered aimlessly for hundreds of years.

Also, I think what Gandalf and Eowyn say to the Witch-King may be important - what it tells us I don't know - but I will just bring it up to further consider the question:

"You cannot enter here," said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. "Go back t the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master! Go!"~Siege of Gondor

"You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."~The Battle of Pelennor Fieds

[Gordis]

Most interesting topic.

As to the meaning of the WK' words to Eowyn, I guess "thy flesh shall be devoured" might be simply an euphemism for fading, becoming invisible.

See what Eowyn replied to the WK in the LOTR draft, HOME 8:

'Come not between the Nazgul and his prey,' said a cold voice, 'or he will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness where thy flesh shall be devoured and thy shrivelled mind be left naked.'
She stood still and did not blench. 'I do not fear thee, Shadow,' she said. 'Nor him that devoured thee. Go back to him and report that his shadows and dwimor-lakes are powerless even to frighten women.' Home 8, "The battle of the Pelennor fields"

And note another occurrence of "devoured" re: nazgul themselves here:

Faramir: It is said that their lords were men of Númenor who had fallen into dark wickedness; to them the Enemy had given rings of power, and he had devoured them: living ghosts they were become, terrible and evil. - LOTR

So, it could well be that the Witch-King simply treatens Eowyn with using the Morgul knife or some similar spell making the body invisible in this World and relocated entirely into the Shadow-World, and the unhappy fea entrapped in it for all eternity, cold and naked, slave to Sauron forever.

Could it be much the same with orcs?
"Skin the body off you" doesn't sound like violent death and skinning. The orcs wouldn't be so impressed by simple physical violence, torture and the ugliest methods of death. They were experts at it themselves. And the Orcs were indeed impresed beyond words by what the nazgul could do:

'Nazgûl, Nazgûl,' said Grishnákh, shivering and licking his lips, as if the word had a foul taste that he savoured painfully. 'You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Uglúk,' he said. 'Nazgûl! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Most impressive topic! I have been always intrigued by that quote of Gorbag - this is why I referred to him "the only Orc who speaks of metaphysics". Okay, a few thoughts.

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Gorbag and the Black Captain appear to be referring to the same thing.
The question is, what is this they reference? A place of physical and spirtual torture? 'Skin the body off you' certainly seems to indicate physical death, but the Lord of the Nazgûl states his threat is not to kill. Consciousness apparently survives in both cases.
Thoughts?

First this. I am not completely sure whether both the places are the same. It seems to be related... but the WK's words might be actually referring to real torture, like somebody mentioned - some place in Barad-Dur or such. Or a metaphorical expression of being brought in front of Sauron?

I always imagined something horrible under that: like, really being brought in front of Sauron, while one's physical body would be really consumed, and only the spirit will remain - but for Sauron, it will be still visible, and he will be penetrating it with his gaze. Something similar was referred to by Lúthien, I believe, when Huan held Sauron by the throat at Tol-in-Gaurhoth:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 19

Ere his foul spirit left its dark house, Lúthien came to him, ghost be sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said: "There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower."

So it indeed may be that Gorbag was referring to the same thing, too. "The other side" would be after (physical) death, again.

Originally Posted by Gordis

"Skin the body off you" doesn't sound like violent death and skinning. The orcs wouldn't be so impressed by simple physical violence, torture and the ugliest methods of death. They were experts at it themselves. And the Orcs were indeed impresed beyond words by what the nazgul could do:

Oh, but I am sured they would, and that they did skin people every now and then. But you are right that the Nazgul incited more fear in them, for sure, and seemingly not fear just of mere violent physical death, but of something too scary (and possibly even ununderstandable, and therefore more scary) for an average Orc.

[Mnemosyne]

But I can think of one more example of torment--not from the Nine, mind, but from Barad-dur itself: what would have happened to Frodo without the grace of Gollum.

Granted, both these examples are sketchy: one is the Mouth of Sauron trying to trick Gandalf & co. into following his terms, and the other is Tolkien himself speculating in Letters, but here you go:

Originally Posted by Mouth of Sauron

Good, good! He was dear to you, I see. Or else his errand was one that you did not wish to fail? It has. And now he shall endure the slow torment of years, as long and slow as our arts in the Great Tower can contrive, and never be released, unless maybe when he is changed and broken, so that he may come to you, and you shall see what you have done. This shall surely be unless you accept my Lord's terms.

and

Originally Posted by Letter 246

In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave.

The first quote is in fact describing a Ring-less situation, since Sauron did not understand the purpose in Frodo's journey; so it's probably more relevant here. Pippin later worries that Gandalf's response to the demands has doomed Frodo to "the torment of the Tower." So if the Lord of the Nine is referring to a physical place where all this tormenting is done, if it's not Barad-dur itself it may be quite like it.

It seems to be implying that wherever this place is, it would leave the body intact enough for the spirit to still be attached to it: otherwise most people would not be able to see the horrors of the caught "spy" being "changed and broken."

I would tend to believe that the torment talked about here is mostly spiritual, and any torture of the body would be adapted to make that greater torture even more exquisite.