Should Saruman have accompanied Mauhur and his "lads" ?

[The Mouth of Sauron]

Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli encountered Saruman on the edge of Fangorn Forest the night after Eomer and his riders had seen off Ugluk and his band. During the battle, Mauhur and his "lads" emerged from Fangorn to attack. Considering Saruman was obviously in the vicinity, would it not have been better if he'd helped Mauhur ?

Come to think of it, Gandalf and Treebeard were close by too - why didn't they intervene on the other side ?

[garm]

Gandalf explained to the Three Hunters that Saruman had arrived too late to do anything to help his messengers; and he himself arrived in the vicinity only after Saruman had returned to Isengard. As for Treebeard, why should he interfere in a battle between Men and Orcs? Ents were a secretive race, by and large. If Treebeard had turned up in the middle of a battle, imagine the horror and confusion among the Rohirrim as well as the orcs.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by The Mouth of Sauron

Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli encountered Saruman on the edge of Fangorn Forest the night after Eomer and his riders had seen off Ugluk and his band. During the battle, Mauhur and his "lads" emerged from Fangorn to attack. Considering Saruman was obviously in the vicinity, would it not have been better if he'd helped Mauhur ?

Come to think of it, Gandalf and Treebeard were close by too - why didn't they intervene on the other side ?

A good commander is supposed to be able to delegate.

That being said, I wouldn't have sent just a few score orcs to recover the Ring. Saruman had (at least) 10,000 at his disposal, and should have sent a thousand- with a sizable unit of warg-riders to expedite the Ring's transport to Isengard.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I wouldn't have sent just a few score orcs to recover the Ring. Saruman had (at least) 10,000 at his disposal, and should have sent a thousand- with a sizable unit of warg-riders to expedite the Ring's transport to Isengard.

At the time, Saruman's forces were heavily involved in fighting the Rohirrim at the Fords of Isen, and he wouldn't have wanted to gamble by sending such a large force away from that action. Also, that might have galvanised Théoden to action despite the work of Wormtongue, and Saruman did not want Théoden mobilising the Rohirrim en masse.
Keep in mind too that Saruman did not know whether Merry and Pippin had the Ring or not.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

At the time, Saruman's forces were heavily involved in fighting the Rohirrim at the Fords of Isen, and he wouldn't have wanted to gamble by sending such a large force away from that action. Also, that might have galvanised Théoden to action despite the work of Wormtongue, and Saruman did not want Théoden mobilising the Rohirrim en masse.

Exactly. Actually Saruman DID send probably as large group as he could - maybe actually a lot more than was necessary! He sent a group that would not be detected immediately because of its size, and be mobile enough, but still it was spotted. Actually, if we trust Uglúk, it was the fault of one of the small Moria-orc scouts who failed to kill the horseman who spotted them.

And as for Saruman's involvement, like it was said, he arrived too late. And aside from that, there has been a lot of speculation whether it actually was real Saruman or just some "image projection" of him.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

At the time, Saruman's forces were heavily involved in fighting the Rohirrim at the Fords of Isen, and he wouldn't have wanted to gamble by sending such a large force away from that action. Also, that might have galvanised Théoden to action despite the work of Wormtongue, and Saruman did not want Théoden mobilising the Rohirrim en masse.
Keep in mind too that Saruman did not know whether Merry and Pippin had the Ring or not.

I'm not sure I agree with the entire assessment.

If the large-scale fighting at the Fords of Isen didn't galvanize Theoden in the first place, then why would Mauhur commanding a larger contingent have galvanized him? I think Theoden was fairly well out of it until Aragorn and Gandalf arrived. And though Saruman didn't know for certain, there are few things that are certain in warfare. He took the gamble: in for a penny, in for a pound (but that's just me. )

Saruman still had uruks to spare, as he threw thousands of them against Helm's Deep later. Fast-moving warg cavalry could have gotten Merry and Pippin back well before any uruks on foot.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

If the large-scale fighting at the Fords of Isen didn't galvanize Theoden in the first place, then why would a larger contingent under Mauhur have galvanized him? I think Theoden was fairly well out of it until Aragorn and Gandalf arrived.

While the battle of the Fords could have been (and was) minimised in importance by Wormtongue for a while, a large force crossing the West Emnet, that for all the Rohirrim could have known was an invasion army, probably would have been quite concerning to all, including Théoden. Even if Wormtonge was still managing to stonewall Théoden, I can see the Rohirrim, under the threat of a large enemy army riding through the heart of their realm, taking some sort of drastic action against Wormtongue to silence him, and then convincing the King that the 'invasion force' must be stopped. The Rohirrim were a warlike people. Saruman's plans depended on their not being roused to respond to him militarily until it was too late.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

While the battle of the Fords could have been (and was) minimised in importance by Wormtongue for a while, a large force crossing the West Emnet, that for all the Rohirrim could have known was an invasion army, probably would have been quite concerning to all, including Théoden. Even if Wormtonge was still managing to stonewall Théoden, I can see the Rohirrim, under the threat of a large enemy army riding through the heart of their realm, taking some sort of drastic action against Wormtongue to silence him, and then convincing the King that the 'invasion force' must be stopped. The Rohirrim were a warlike people. Saruman's plans depended on their not being roused to respond to him militarily until it was too late.

I still get the impression that Saruman was being hesitant as a commander. Again, if the Ring is the supreme objective of his entire campaign, his strategy of sending a (comparatively) puny contingent under Mauhur to recover it seems half-hearted.

If this were an espionage mission or a reconnaissance, then it would be more appropriate. But to send the force he did seems like waffling: "Well, I need that ring- if I get it, the war is won! Buuuut, hmmm. I don't want to alarm anyone, either..." [At this point, if I were his Captain, I would be jumping up and down, saying, "Sire, make a @#$% decision! Are these the hobbits or not?!? And are we getting the ring or not!?! Because if they are the hobbits and if we are getting the ring, then we damned well better act like we're going to!" Anyway, back to Saruman's thoughts...] "...So, instead of sending thousands I'll just send..... Oh... Decisions, decisions... a few score under Ugluk... Curses! That might not be enough. Sooooo, I'll send a few score more under Mauhur to, ummm, rendezvous. Yeah, that's it!"

Saruman's plan seemed to have all of the simplicity, coordination, and clarity of a joint Swiss-Mongolian amphibious assault.