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08-06-2012, 11:54 PM
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#1 |
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Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 47
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Discriminatory in Valinor?
Now, being me i have spent a lot of time wasting... time by reading quite a big chunk of the threads on this forum and i noticed that, from what i have read, no-one had mentioned or asked this question: Why weren't men allowed to go to Valinor?I am seriously curious about this and i thought it would be a good idea for my first thread. Why were only elves allowed to go to Valinor? Was it just the Valar favouring the First Born or was there a reason? If there was a reason it had better be a good one or else. If men were allowed to go over the sea, then the whole Aragorn-Arwen heartbreak thing would not have happened because they could have both gone over the sea. And then Elrond wouldn't get mad at Aragorn for 'stealing' his daughter. Also, Arwen would be happy because she could stay with her father AND Aragorn. Anyway, does anyone know the answer or at least have a guess.
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“That's the only place in all the lands we've ever heard of that we don't want to see any closer; and that's the one place we're trying to get to! And that's just where we can't get." - Sam Last edited by Lollipop010900; 08-06-2012 at 11:58 PM. |
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08-07-2012, 12:11 AM
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#2 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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Well it's called the undying lands. Also elves will remain in Arda (world) til the end while men will pass beyond it's borders at death. They are called the visitors, and since their visit is so brief they aren't allowed to go to the undying lands. It was morgoth who instilled fear of death in man. It was a gift from illuvatar just like immortality was a gift to the elves. However because of Morgoth men envy the ever lasting elves, and Sauron pushed them over the edge making them sail towards Valinor. Which ****ed off god...
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08-07-2012, 12:43 AM
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#3 |
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Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 47
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Ah... now i get it! So its all Morgoth and Sauron's fault. As always. The story of Middle Earth (cut short); Morgoth annoys the Elves. Morgoth snuffs it. Sauron annoys the Elves and Men. Sauron snuffs it.
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“That's the only place in all the lands we've ever heard of that we don't want to see any closer; and that's the one place we're trying to get to! And that's just where we can't get." - Sam |
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08-07-2012, 01:01 AM
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#4 |
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Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,449
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Not exactly. It is believed to be the fault of Morgoth and Sauron that Men regard the gift of men as a doom. But going Valinor would not make Men immortal. They would still die. They are the undying lands because those there are already immortal, they are not made immortal by going. So Aragorn going wouldn't work even if it were allowed. Frodo, Sam and Gimli would have all died.
The fates of men and elves are different. Elves are immortal in the sense that they last as long as the world but they do not know what if anything will happen to them after whereas men are not bound to the fate of the world.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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08-07-2012, 01:17 AM
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#5 |
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Banned
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
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Yeah so one can imagine what a big honour it was for Bilbo, Frodo and Gimli to go there. As far as I know the only non elves who has been there.
EDIT: Must have been approved by god.
Last edited by Mumriken; 08-07-2012 at 01:21 AM. |
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08-07-2012, 06:03 AM
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#6 | |
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
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Quote:
You actually bring up a question that has been bugging me for quite a while; just what ARE the criterion to get that singular honor. Frodo and Bilbo, of course were Ringbearers (as was Sam) and one could argue that getting to spend thier final days healing in Tol Erresea was a sort of reward for all the pain they had gone through; . And of course, Arwen all but tells Frodo he can go in her stead (as if in giving up her Elvish immortality to marry Aragorn, she had left and empty berth on the boat to be filled). So all of them have some sort of "right" to take the trip (Not to mention that the ship that takes Frodo and Bilbo is also carrying Elrond, Galdriel, and Gandalf, probably the only three people with enough status and respect in Elfdom that thier word is all that is needed (i.e. "I say it's OK, so it's OK") But Gimli is a bit more vauge; it almost seems like he gets in on a much lower standard. He is of course a member of the Fellowship, but if that is all that was needed, Merry and Pippin should have had the opportunity (I know Merry and Pippin were dead by the time Legolas set sail, but they could have been offered a berth on one of the earlier elven ships sailing out, as Sam presumably was if the Gamgee tradition was true.) He is of course Legolas's best friend, but that seems an awfully casual basis for getting such a great honor. I imagine that there were probably other elves who were close frieds with dwarves back in the fist and second ages (when Elf-Dwarf relationships were not so strained).You could argue that Gimli's great deed was healing some of the divide between elf and dwarf. And of course, Gimli has his deep love of Gladriel, but he can't be the only one whose ever fallen in love with her (Faramir's comments at the dinner at the falls seem to indicate that pretty much ANY mortal who gazes on Galadriel risks gettting caught in her beauty) I have no question Legolas had every right to invite Gimli to sail with him (it's his boat, he can sail with whomever he wants) but a part of me seems to think that Legolas may have been overstepping his perogative in his assumption that Gimi could get the same deal as Frodo and the other mortal sailors. |
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