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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter The Return of the Shadow.
This chapter is a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, and so there is no base text. Because of this, I have marked every instance of any text used, so as to be easy to follow. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. RS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
RS-SL-01: We open right where the other chapter left off, with the escape of Ohtar and the sword. The account given in The Sources of the Legend of Isildur's Death is longer, but I felt it was out of place, being a somewhat scholarly document, as well as the fact that it references events in the late part of the Third Age and the beginning of the Fourth Age. This account in Of the Rings of Power is the best we have left. RS-SL-02 and 03: These additions set the stage of Thranduil's isolation and his frame of mind. It sets the stage for our return to him at the end of the chapter when Sauron returns. We get to see some of his character, as well as the origin of his halls. We also talk a bit about the transformation of the Silvan speech, which I promised to Fin when we were editing the very first chapter of the Second Age. RS-SL-04: A comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. RS-SL-05: I removed this reference to Frodo, since in our draft of the narrative, he will never be mentioned once, and so this reference to him is severely out of place. RS-SL-06: We have used the other origin of the name of Lorien (as we should, as it makes much greater linguistic and etymological sense, and is in line with what Treebeard says in Two Towers). I also removed CT's comment. RS-SL-07: Here we transition from Thranduil to Gondor, and set the stage for its earliest kings. There is no narrative of Gondor's doings before the seventh king, so this paragraph from Of the Rings of Power helps to convey the passage of time, as well as set the stage for Gondor's growth. RS-SL-08: Here we begin with the first bit of narrative on the kings of Gondor from Appendix A. This chapter uses Appendix A heavily, as I think can be seen to be necessary. RS-SL-09: This is a bit from The Tradition of Isildur that belongs here chronologically, and since we have only just finished that previous chapter, it will still be fresh in the mind of the reader. I edited the opening to flow correctly. Afterwards we return to the Appendix A narrative and introduce Tarannon Falastur. RS-SL-10: This is the story of Queen Beruthiel as given in the Note to the Istari. I removed the descriptions of Tarannon Falastur from the beginning, since we have just given them in the previous paragraph. RS-SL-11: Editing to turn CT's description into a narrative. RS-SL-12: This discussion of Eriador is very brief in Appendix A. In that work it sets the stage for the discussion of Arnor which occupies that area. It does the same thing here. RS-SL-13: I decided to include the rest of the Galadriel and Celeborn Appendix D here, since it describes the area, especially during the Third Age. I know it jumps around in time a bit, but as it is discussing geography and not history, I think it is ok. RS-SL-14: This was a bit left out of Unfinished Tales and printed in the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor essay. RS-SL-15: I removed the references to The Lord of the Rings in order to preserve the historical nature of our text. RS-SL-16: another LotR reference removed. RS-SL-17: This ending to the footnote was left out of Unfinished Tales and given in the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor essay. RS-SL-18: We return to Appendix A's discussion of Eriador and how Arnor fits into it. We begin by laying out the geo-political status of the land: who owns what. RS-SL-19: Here we begin to talk about the history of Arnor. Like in Gondor, there is no history written about the first few kings, and so the first thing we hear about Arnorian history is the fracturing of the realm. RS-SL-20: This footnote is sourced from the lists of the Kings' names in the beginning of the Appendix, but I found it to be important and so I included it. RS-SL-21 and 22: Here we return to Gondor, and I added a clarification to the 'his' in 'his nephew', since we have inserted a bunch of Arnorian history in between the last reference to Falastur. RS-SL-23: In the next few paragraphs we will detail the change of name from Greenwood the Great to Mirkwood, so it is important that we are consistent and change it here. RS-SL-24: Here we go back to Of the Rings of Power where we are given the first narrative introduction of Sauron's return: as a Shadow (making the title choice, I think, even more fitting). I edited it lightly since we already talked about Greenwood in the last paragraph. This is smoother, I think. RS-SL-25: Here we see Thranduil's response to the arrival of Sauron to the forest, and we detail the origin of his Halls and his kingdom as it is in The Hobbit. RS-SL-26: This detail about the extent of his realm was, I thought, important to include. RS-SL-27: Here we return to Of the Rings of Power where we finally detail the change of name from Greenwood to Mirkwood. RS-SL-28: This addition is from the early drafts of the Tale of Years, which were much longer and more text-heavy than the final versions were. I used this because it is the only place I found that detailed the origin or arrival of Hobbits, which is an incredibly important event and happens (according to the final Tale of Years) at this time. I therefore think it fits to use this here. RS-SL-29: This additional detail is given in the note, and I think it is an interesting and important detail to add in. RS-SL-30: These movements happen very close together in the timeline (within a few years) and I figured it made sense to include them in this paragraph. RS-SL-31: Here we come to the arrival of the rest of the Istari from Of the Rings of Power. This was my original placement for the material which is now the chapter Of the Five Wizards, but now this is much reduced in content. This is fine, however, and I think this nice simple account fits nicely here. RS-SL-32: I added this addition here to reflect the changes of Tolkien's which we have incorporated that say that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age. I think this is enough to make the situation clear, but I am open to other alternatives. RS-SL-33 and 34: I thought it was only fair to include the details of Radagast's dwelling, since we are given Gandalf and Saruman's. I took the text from Note 4 of The Istari in Unfinished Tales, and added in the tiny snippet from The Hobbit to create a quick description of Rhosgobel (as much as can be done). That brings us to the end of the chapter. All in all, I am actually very proud of this chapter, since it took a lot of cross-checking and timeline measuring to make sure the narrative flow was accurate to history. Making a chapter out of so many different snippets is a challenge, but I think it turned out quite well. Hopefully you enjoy! Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-18-2018 at 01:05 AM. |
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#2 | ||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,682
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My compliment, you managed this difficult chapter very nicely. I rather have additions than criticism:
RS-SL-01: I think we should add here a passage from The Heirs of Elendil: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As a consequence of this I would move the complete passage quoted above to a slightly later place just before RS-SL-21. I know that this is against the chronological order, but it is the easiest way to make the connection just explained clearer. RS-SL-18: Here we give an account of the Dwarves still journeying along the Great Road. That is good placed and well edited, but the passage ‘as they had done for long years before Hobbits came to the Shire’ most in my opinion be changed. I would simply remove ‘before the Hobbits came to the shire’. Whatever reference we take for the ‘long years’ it is right since the Great Road was used if not made by the Dwarves for their trade between the different realms even before the rising of the Sun. RS-SL-26: This case is similar to the last, so here we might leave the allusion to the future stand, so for the moment I think we should remove the following bit at the end ‘, before the coming of the Dwarves exiled from Moria and the invasion of the Dragon’. RS-SL-29: I think we should add here where these Hobbits settled. After this I think we should use a part from Of Dwarves and Men: Quote:
RS-SL-30.4: I think we have to remove Bilbo here and of course the editorial reference to LotR. RS-SL-30.6: I replaced ‘Bilbo’s time’ by ‘the end of the Third Age’. RS-SL-30.8: I removed this editorial note but made the correction earlier in the text. RS-SL-31 to RS-SL-34: I see that we have a chapter in volume 3 about the Istari where we can address a many things easier, but we maybe should at least mention somewhere here or in the Second Age chapter the name ‘Blue Wizards Ithryn Luin’ maybe here with an allusion that Saruman journey with them into the east. In addition I think we should add here the scene of Círdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I suggest to take that from The Rings of Power since we might repeat the scene in volume 3 with in the essay The Istari. One last point: RS-SL-08, RS-SL-09.5, RS-SL-19, RS-SL-21: We should discuss if we will not in these cases take the very similar passages from The Heirs of Elendil. I agree that Appendix A has additional information, but we could add these into the wording of The Heirs of Elendil, if necessary. On the other hand we might consider taking The Heirs of Elendil and update it as part of volume 3 behind The Line of Elros. If we do that then here Appendix A is the better source. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 06-18-2018 at 02:24 PM. |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RS-SL-01.5: Agreed, good find.
RS-SL-10.2: I don't think we need to first addition, since we already say much the same thing a sentence earlier. Same with the third addition, since the information is basically the same as that already given in the existing note. The middle addition is very good though. I also agree to move the quoted additions to the place just before RS-SL-21. RS-SL-18: I actually think we are fine to leave the phrase 'before Hobbits came to the Shire.' This work was supposed to have been compiled by Hobbits and Gondorian scribes, and so to use this phrase does not pose any real contradictions or issues in my opinion. RS-SL-26: This I agree to, because it presupposes knowledge of the future event, whereas the previous phrase did not. Therefore i agree to remove this phrase here. However, I would then change 'was growing' to 'grew' in order to make the sentence sound better. RS-SL-29: Agreed to this and all the Dwarves and Men additions. Great find, I'd totally forgotten about that section! RS-SL-31 to 34: I actually don't think we need to insert the name Ithryn Luin. Having it in the essay in Volume 3 is for me enough information. Also, in this new timeline, they cannot go into the East with Saruman, since they journeyed there long before he came to Middle-earth. As to the scene with Cirdan, I intentionally did not include this here. I want to keep the structure of Of the Rings of Power where Gandalf's possession of Narya is a secret revealed only at the end. Tolkien made that choice deliberately and I see no reason to go against that. This way it has more dramatic and thematic weight. Heirs of Elendil: I think that we should incorporate the Heirs into the text of our drafts. I have done so in some later narratives of Eldacar/Valacar and of Narmacil, where Heirs had much more information. But I do not think we should prefer it over Appendix A. Appendix A is the final and correct form, and is often the most verbose. Therefore, I think that any new information from Heirs should be simply inserted into the Appendix A additions, like you have done in RS-SL-01.5. I ultimately see no real reason to prefer Heirs of Elendil as the base text as opposed to Appendix A. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 06-18-2018 at 01:22 PM. |
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#4 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,682
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RS-SL-10.2: I agree that these is supperficial.
RS-SL-10.4: I don't think that we have an other source that Berúthiel actually hated the cats becuase they jumped at her. We might skip the last part from ', but she kept some ...'. RS-SL-18: This would then be the first mention of the Shire at all. I don't think that is okay. RS-SL-31 to RS-SL-34: The Blue Wizards could have come back to meet Saruman. But I am okay with not mentioning them together with Saruman. But what actaully speak against this: Quote:
Heirs of Elendil: Well, the reason to prefer this text above Appendix A is that considering a 4 volume book bound in red leather the volume 4 would contain The Hobbit, LotR including the Appendicies and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But I am not adamant on this. However we might consider the inclusion of the Heirs of Elendil, if we accept repetition between our narrative text and the Appendicies of LotR, why not with as well with volume 3? Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 | |||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RS-SL-10.4: Agreed.
RS-SL-18: Very well, we can remove it. RS-SL-31/34: I do not agree with this addition, only because it is not true that they had no names, since we have listed two names for each of them already in the story. Therefore if we must name them, let it be thus: Quote:
Heirs of Elendil: I think I disagree. This is the text setting forth the contents of the actual Red Book of Westmarch: Quote:
Volume 1): The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings Volume 2), 3), 4): Translations from the Elvish (our work) Volume 5): Lost materials, but no doubt many of the things that make up the Appendices, such as the Geneologies and the later part of the Tale of Years. Therefore, to say that Appendix A is included with LotR is not true. This is from the preface of Appendix A: Quote:
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#6 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I actually discovered that nowhere outside of the Council of Elrond chapter is it said that the capital of Arnor moved from Annuminas to Fornost, so I propose we edit it in like so:
Quote:
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#7 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Regarding the ambiguity: Yeah, that makes sense, I also think leaving the text as is is the best choice.
I also like Fin's latest change. |
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#8 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,682
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When I worked at The Hunt for the Ring I found this nice text that I think we should use here at the end of the sub-chapter [i]The Istari[/b]:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Oh! Good find!
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#10 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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This is a great addition! Man, I really need to get the LotR Companion. I also wanted to comment about one part:
Quote:
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