Frodo leaves Sam behind - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elladan and Elrohir · 11-25-2003, 10:18 PM

In the Visual Companion to The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (which I just happened to look at in Wal-Mart today), it says Gollum persuades Frodo to leave Sam behind and venture into Shelob's Lair alone.What's up with this? I mean, it's totally something Gollum might be expected to do (wanting Frodo to meet Shelob alone), but Frodo? He just leaves his best, first, and last companion behind while he goes into danger? Do the directors really think we'll swallow this?I'm sure a lot of you have heard about this; what's your thoughts?

Eowyn:Lady of Rohan · 11-25-2003, 10:42 PM

It may be that Gollum persuades Frodo to leave Sam. But I don't think Frodo would do that. Frodo knows in his heart that Sam helped him get this far to destroy the Ring. Even if Frodo tried to leave Sam, Sam would follow him. I don't think Peter Jackson will make it so that Frodo won't have Sam. Does that comfort you?[ 11:43 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Eowyn:Lady of Rohan ]

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 11-26-2003, 05:49 AM

Frodo does appear to be alone when he sees Shelob in the trailer.

Tigerlily Gamgee · 11-26-2003, 09:16 AM

There was a dialogue from the video game that involves a scene where Frodo says something along the lines of, "You can't help me anymore. Go home, Sam." But do you really think that Sam would let Frodo go in there alone. I mean, he would be heart broken by the fact that Frodo says that to him... but he'll follow. One thing that PJ has been doing throughout the film is making the ring's hold on Frodo stronger earlier on. So, the way that it is going, I can see Frodo being seduced by the ring and telling Sam to leave. Does this upset me... no, not really. PJ's been doing a great job, and I think it'll all work out.

Enorëiel · 11-26-2003, 09:54 AM

This worries me just a bit (how could PJ even think of doing something like this?!) but not much. As mentioned before, The Ring got a stronger hold of Frodo earlier on and so my guess is that it's the Ring "talking". Sam would never leave Frodo and I don't think Frodo would purposely hurt Sam's feelings by telling him to go away.

Lyta_Underhill · 11-26-2003, 11:15 AM

Hmmmm...I wonder if this means the scene will be blocked differently than the book, so that Frodo does not get to do his whooping and yelling charge after he breaks the spider's thread that blocks the exit. I always liked that part. It illustrated a good point in the follies of Frodo; his becoming 'fey' at this point to me deepens his character by having it snap just a bit. From the descriptions above, it sounds like I might not get to see this, or perhaps PJ has translated Frodo's 'fey' mood into his bad judgement in going into the tunnel alone with Gollum and leaving Sam outside ( ). It could work, and who knows, I might still get to see Frodo whooping and hollering as he runs out the other side of Shelob's lair! I always thought that was a well done piece of tension breaking on Tolkien's part, but maybe that was because I'm sitting inside Frodo's head an awful lot and can understand why he needs that moment. I'll wait and see on this one...it could work!Cheers, Lyta

Ainaserkewen · 11-26-2003, 02:42 PM

It might work out to Frodo wanting to leave Sam behind...but I think it's just another excuse to bring up the whole "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee" thing...which I thought was too used in the fellowship.

The Only Real Estel · 11-26-2003, 02:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"You can't help me anymore. Go home, Sam."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I will be quite upset if that happens. Although PJ might get it straightened out, it wouldn't be any good at all to have Sam leave Frodo! I guess we'll have to wait & see...

Grimbold · 11-26-2003, 09:01 PM

If Frodo leaves Sam behind, then why this picture in the Companion? <A HREF="http://elflady.com/legolasgreenleaf/rotk/misc/images/vc_008.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Sam and Shelob</A> If that doesn't work for you, here's the whole gallery thanks to HCIsland. <A HREF="http://elflady.com/legolasgreenleaf/rotk/misc/vc.htm" TARGET=_blank>ROTK Visual Companion Scans</A> Look at the picture in the left column, third from the bottom.[ 10:09 PM November 26, 2003: Message edited by: Grimbold ]

Knight of Gondor · 11-26-2003, 10:14 PM

Actually, this sounds like a true theory. Only Sam doesn't leave him, he comes after him and chases him in to the tower. Because Frodo is indeed alone, it would appear. And the division between Sam and Frodo has been ongoing since TTT.

Lyta_Underhill · 11-26-2003, 10:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>it's just another excuse to bring up the whole "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee" thing...which I thought was too used in the fellowship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree about this idea being overemphasized in the FOTR, Ainaserkewen! I don't think Gandalf had to tell him; he would have done it anyway! But, then again, perhaps Gandalf's mandate gave Sam an excuse not to admit to himself that he couldn't leave Frodo even if he wanted to! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If Frodo leaves Sam behind, then why this picture in the Companion?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suppose the idea would be that Frodo goes on into the tunnel, but Sam follows him too late and then engages Shelob...I personally would like to see them together in the tunnel, rather than one chasing the other from the outset. (in the book, Sam is chasing Frodo after they break through the web barrier on the other side of the tunnel, having been waylaid by Gollum). I can't see how that picture answers the question, and I wonder how Gollum gets after Sam if he has gone ahead, unless Gollum and Frodo go on, Gollum betrays Frodo and Gollum returns out of the tunnel to attack Sam...hmmm...not thinking too straight. Will have to consider it later! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Although PJ might get it straightened out, it wouldn't be any good at all to have Sam leave Frodo! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, Estel, but Sam DOES leave Frodo! But he can't bear to do it for more than a short time, bless him! I can't see Frodo getting more than a few steps out of sight, when Sam would have to dart after him, yelling, "Mr. Frodo! Mr. Frodo! Don't leave me!" Cheers, Lyta

ArathorofBarahir · 11-27-2003, 08:27 PM

No matter if Frodo told Sam he would die if he followed him, Sam would still follow Frodo, it is just the Sam is. His will was set and only death would break it.

The Only Real Estel · 12-01-2003, 08:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ah, Estel, but Sam DOES leave Frodo! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Um...he does? Can you give me an exact quote on that? I just read that section today & saw nothing like that, unless I had fallen asleep & skipped or something .

**The Saucepan Man** · 12-01-2003, 08:31 PM

If you want to know whether Sam leaves Frodo in RotK, try clicking on the (second) link given by Gorwingel <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002462" TARGET=_blank>here</A>.But only do it if you really don't mind learning just about everything there is to know about this film.

11-25-2003, 10:18 PM	#1
Elladan and Elrohir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Halls of Mandos Posts: 332	Frodo leaves Sam behind In the Visual Companion to The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (which I just happened to look at in Wal-Mart today), it says Gollum persuades Frodo to leave Sam behind and venture into Shelob's Lair alone.<P>What's up with this? I mean, it's totally something Gollum might be expected to do (wanting Frodo to meet Shelob alone), but Frodo? He just leaves his best, first, and last companion behind while he goes into danger? Do the directors really think we'll swallow this?<P>I'm sure a lot of you have heard about this; what's your thoughts? __________________ "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon, I was barely involved. All I did was give your uncle a little nudge out of the door." THE HOBBIT - IT'S COMING

11-25-2003, 10:42 PM	#2
Eowyn:Lady of Rohan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland,Oregon USA Posts: 22	It may be that Gollum persuades Frodo to leave Sam. But I don't think Frodo would do that. Frodo knows in his heart that Sam helped him get this far to destroy the Ring. Even if Frodo tried to leave Sam, Sam would follow him. I don't think Peter Jackson will make it so that Frodo won't have Sam. Does that comfort you?<p>[ 11:43 PM November 25, 2003: Message edited by: Eowyn:Lady of Rohan ] __________________ Erin Elisabeth Jee Hyun Jung Ellis

11-26-2003, 05:49 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Frodo does appear to be alone when he sees Shelob in the trailer. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

11-26-2003, 09:16 AM	#4
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	There was a dialogue from the video game that involves a scene where Frodo says something along the lines of, "You can't help me anymore. Go home, Sam."<BR>But do you really think that Sam would let Frodo go in there alone. I mean, he would be heart broken by the fact that Frodo says that to him... but he'll follow.<BR>One thing that PJ has been doing throughout the film is making the ring's hold on Frodo stronger earlier on. So, the way that it is going, I can see Frodo being seduced by the ring and telling Sam to leave.<BR>Does this upset me... no, not really. PJ's been doing a great job, and I think it'll all work out. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

11-26-2003, 09:54 AM	#5
Enorëiel Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Hobbiton, U.S.A. Posts: 165	This worries me just a bit (how could PJ even think of doing something like this?!) but not much. As mentioned before, The Ring got a stronger hold of Frodo earlier on and so my guess is that it's the Ring "talking". Sam would never leave Frodo and I don't think Frodo would purposely hurt Sam's feelings by telling him to go away. __________________ You can take a hobbit out of the Shire but you can't take the Shire out of a hobbit. Whoever said "Nothing is impossible" never tried to slam a revolving door.

11-26-2003, 11:15 AM	#6
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	Hmmmm...I wonder if this means the scene will be blocked differently than the book, so that Frodo does not get to do his whooping and yelling charge after he breaks the spider's thread that blocks the exit. I always liked that part. It illustrated a good point in the follies of Frodo; his becoming 'fey' at this point to me deepens his character by having it snap just a bit. From the descriptions above, it sounds like I might not get to see this, or perhaps PJ has translated Frodo's 'fey' mood into his bad judgement in going into the tunnel alone with Gollum and leaving Sam outside ( ). It could work, and who knows, I might still get to see Frodo whooping and hollering as he runs out the other side of Shelob's lair! I always thought that was a well done piece of tension breaking on Tolkien's part, but maybe that was because I'm sitting inside Frodo's head an awful lot and can understand why he needs that moment. I'll wait and see on this one...it could work!<P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

11-26-2003, 02:42 PM	#7
Ainaserkewen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A cosmic waiting room Posts: 651	It might work out to Frodo wanting to leave Sam behind...but I think it's just another excuse to bring up the whole "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee" thing...which I thought was too used in the fellowship. __________________ Solus... I'm eating chicken again. I ate chicken yesterday and the day before... will I be eating chicken again tomorrow? Why am I always eating chicken?

11-26-2003, 02:49 PM	#8
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"You can't help me anymore. Go home, Sam."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I will be quite upset if that happens. Although PJ might get it straightened out, it wouldn't be any good at all to have Sam leave Frodo! I guess we'll have to wait & see...

11-26-2003, 09:01 PM	#9
Grimbold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenor Posts: 88	If Frodo leaves Sam behind, then why this picture in the Companion?<BR><A HREF="http://elflady.com/legolasgreenleaf/rotk/misc/images/vc_008.jpg" TARGET=_blank>Sam and Shelob</A><BR>If that doesn't work for you, here's the whole gallery thanks to HCIsland.<BR><A HREF="http://elflady.com/legolasgreenleaf/rotk/misc/vc.htm" TARGET=_blank>ROTK Visual Companion Scans</A><BR>Look at the picture in the left column, third from the bottom.<p>[ 10:09 PM November 26, 2003: Message edited by: Grimbold ] __________________ Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountains. Like wind in the meadow. The days have gone down in the west. Behind the hills, into shadow. How did it come to this?

11-26-2003, 10:14 PM	#10
Knight of Gondor Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kentucky Posts: 744	Actually, this sounds like a true theory. Only Sam doesn't leave him, he comes after him and chases him in to the tower. Because Frodo is indeed alone, it would appear. And the division between Sam and Frodo has been ongoing since TTT. __________________ Eagerly awaiting the REAL Return of the King - Jesus Christ! Revelation 19:11-16

11-26-2003, 10:16 PM	#11
Lyta_Underhill Haunted Halfling Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: an uncounted length of steps--floating between air molecules Posts: 841	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>it's just another excuse to bring up the whole "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee" thing...which I thought was too used in the fellowship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree about this idea being overemphasized in the FOTR, <B>Ainaserkewen</B>! I don't think Gandalf had to tell him; he would have done it anyway! But, then again, perhaps Gandalf's mandate gave Sam an excuse not to admit to himself that he <I>couldn't</I> leave Frodo even if he wanted to!<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If Frodo leaves Sam behind, then why this picture in the Companion?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I suppose the idea would be that Frodo goes on into the tunnel, but Sam follows him too late and then engages Shelob...I personally would like to see them together in the tunnel, rather than one chasing the other from the outset. (in the book, Sam is chasing Frodo after they break through the web barrier on the other side of the tunnel, having been waylaid by Gollum). I can't see how that picture answers the question, and I wonder how Gollum gets after Sam if he has gone ahead, unless Gollum and Frodo go on, Gollum betrays Frodo and Gollum returns out of the tunnel to attack Sam...hmmm...not thinking too straight. Will have to consider it later! <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Although PJ might get it straightened out, it wouldn't be any good at all to have Sam leave Frodo! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, <B>Estel</B>, but Sam DOES leave Frodo! But he can't bear to do it for more than a short time, bless him! I can't see Frodo getting more than a few steps out of sight, when Sam would have to dart after him, yelling, "Mr. Frodo! Mr. Frodo! Don't leave me!" <P>Cheers,<BR>Lyta __________________ “…she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.”

11-27-2003, 08:27 PM	#12
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	No matter if Frodo told Sam he would die if he followed him, Sam would still follow Frodo, it is just the Sam is. His will was set and only death would break it. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

12-01-2003, 08:25 PM	#13
The Only Real Estel Raffish Rapscallion Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Far from the 'Downs, it seems :-( Posts: 2,835	<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ah, Estel, but Sam DOES leave Frodo! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um...he does? Can you give me an exact quote on that? I just read that section today & saw nothing like that, unless I had fallen asleep & skipped or something .

12-01-2003, 08:31 PM	#14
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	If you want to know whether Sam leaves Frodo in RotK, try clicking on the (second) link given by Gorwingel <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002462" TARGET=_blank>here</A>.<P>But only do it if you <I>really</I> don't mind learning just about everything there is to know about this film. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!