'This task is appointed to you' - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 12-17-2003, 04:15 AM

What does Elrond mean? Or when Gandalf tells Frodo that he was meant to have the Ring. I assume the one who intends it is God, Eru Illuvatar. But then Eru must know what the effect of the Quest on Frodo will be, that he will end broken by it, so broken he will have to leave the only world he has ever known or loved, to end his days among the Elves. So, what was Tolkien saying about God, & the way he works - in Middle Earth at least.

I found some things in John Garth's Tolkien & the Great War, reactions of the other TCBS members to Rob Gilson's death. GB Smith wrote two elegies for Gilson: Garth writes

"'One piece declares a stark view of Divine Providence. Gilson's death is 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain'

Garth goes on

Gilson had achieved the greatness of sacrifice but not,Tolkien wrote, greatness of the particular sort the TCBS had envisioned. 'The death of any of its members is but a bitter winnowing of those who were not meant to be great - at least directly'

Smith was not happy, apparently, with this statement, but, as Garth goes on to explain
'He had missed Tolkien's point, Death had prevented their friend from taking his 'holiness & nobility' & his inspirational qualities to the wider world. 'His greatness is in other words now a personal matter with us', Tolkien said, 'but only touches the TCBS on that precise side which perhaps ... was the only one Rob really felt - 'Friendship to the Nth power'.

The essence of TCBSianism was more than friendship, he reminded Smith 'What I meant, & thought Chris (Wiseman) meant, & am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of Fire - certainly as a body if not singly - that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God & truth in a more direct way even than by laying down their several lives in this war'"

OK, so what I'm asking is whether this whole thing of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who canst
only be glorified by man's own passion & the supreme pain' - is this 'the grief talking' - ie, is it the words of a man trying to fit the death of his friend into some 'divine plan' in order to make sense of the event & at the same time still hold onto his faith, or is it what the TCBS, including Tolkien himself, really felt? Is this God who can only be glorified by 'blood outpoured' & 'man's supreme pain' the same Illuvatar who 'appoints' the task of destroying the Ring to one who cannot but be destroyed himself in the attempting of it?

12-17-2003, 04:15 AM	#1
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	'This task is appointed to you' What does Elrond mean? Or when Gandalf tells Frodo that he was meant to have the Ring. I assume the one who intends it is God, Eru Illuvatar. But then Eru must know what the effect of the Quest on Frodo will be, that he will end broken by it, so broken he will have to leave the only world he has ever known or loved, to end his days among the Elves. So, what was Tolkien saying about God, & the way he works - in Middle Earth at least. I found some things in John Garth's Tolkien & the Great War, reactions of the other TCBS members to Rob Gilson's death. GB Smith wrote two elegies for Gilson: Garth writes "'One piece declares a stark view of Divine Providence. Gilson's death is 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured' to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who 'only canst be glorified/ by man's own passion & the supreme pain' Garth goes on Gilson had achieved the greatness of sacrifice but not,Tolkien wrote, greatness of the particular sort the TCBS had envisioned. 'The death of any of its members is but a bitter winnowing of those who were not meant to be great - at least directly' Smith was not happy, apparently, with this statement, but, as Garth goes on to explain 'He had missed Tolkien's point, Death had prevented their friend from taking his 'holiness & nobility' & his inspirational qualities to the wider world. 'His greatness is in other words now a personal matter with us', Tolkien said, 'but only touches the TCBS on that precise side which perhaps ... was the only one Rob really felt - 'Friendship to the Nth power'. The essence of TCBSianism was more than friendship, he reminded Smith 'What I meant, & thought Chris (Wiseman) meant, & am almost sure you meant, was that the TCBS had been granted some spark of Fire - certainly as a body if not singly - that was destined to kindle a new light, or, what is the same thing, rekindle an old light in the world; that the TCBS was destined to testify for God & truth in a more direct way even than by laying down their several lives in this war'" OK, so what I'm asking is whether this whole thing of 'a sacrifice of blood outpoured to a God whose purposes are utterly inscrutable & who canst only be glorified by man's own passion & the supreme pain' - is this 'the grief talking' - ie, is it the words of a man trying to fit the death of his friend into some 'divine plan' in order to make sense of the event & at the same time still hold onto his faith, or is it what the TCBS, including Tolkien himself, really felt? Is this God who can only be glorified by 'blood outpoured' & 'man's supreme pain' the same Illuvatar who 'appoints' the task of destroying the Ring to one who cannot but be destroyed himself in the attempting of it? __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."