‘Canonicity’: the Book or the Reader? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

davem · 05-12-2004, 03:12 AM

SpM

I can see where you're going with the sheet of glass analogy, but the problem with it is summed up by Tolkien's statement:

'In such stories when the sudden 'turn' comes we get a piercing glimpse of joy, & heart's desire, that for a moment passes outside the frame, rends indeed the very web of story, & lets a gleam come through.'

Its the 'rending the web of story' thing - or breaking the glass - the light comes through. We can't then argue any longer about the cause of the patterns. The light from behind is seen to be the cause.

Its fine just discussing the patterns on the surface, but if they are only the 'effect' of the light behind them, then by limiting ourselves only to what appears on the surface, & in effect denying the existence of the Light that causes them, we will fail to ever truly understand what is happening. This is what I meant by having to 'compress' my conceptions & understandings in order to make them fit into some 'common ground' - we'll never get beyond that common ground. Effectively, we're boxing ourselves in. If we limit everything to what can be explained by brain function, then we'll end up only with an 'explanation' that tells us how our own brains work. We're 'assuming that which is to be proved'.

The patterns on your glass may be beautiful, but the real question is what they mean - is there a reason for them being there, or are they just 'there'. Tolkien is saying that there is a definite reason for them being there, & that that reason is more important, more 'True', more real, & most importantly, more beautiful, than the patterns on the glass, because it is the light behind it, shining through it, that makes it beautiful & meaningful.

05-12-2004, 03:12 AM	#11
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	SpM I can see where you're going with the sheet of glass analogy, but the problem with it is summed up by Tolkien's statement: 'In such stories when the sudden 'turn' comes we get a piercing glimpse of joy, & heart's desire, that for a moment passes outside the frame, rends indeed the very web of story, & lets a gleam come through.' Its the 'rending the web of story' thing - or breaking the glass - the light comes through. We can't then argue any longer about the cause of the patterns. The light from behind is seen to be the cause. Its fine just discussing the patterns on the surface, but if they are only the 'effect' of the light behind them, then by limiting ourselves only to what appears on the surface, & in effect denying the existence of the Light that causes them, we will fail to ever truly understand what is happening. This is what I meant by having to 'compress' my conceptions & understandings in order to make them fit into some 'common ground' - we'll never get beyond that common ground. Effectively, we're boxing ourselves in. If we limit everything to what can be explained by brain function, then we'll end up only with an 'explanation' that tells us how our own brains work. We're 'assuming that which is to be proved'. The patterns on your glass may be beautiful, but the real question is what they mean - is there a reason for them being there, or are they just 'there'. Tolkien is saying that there is a definite reason for them being there, & that that reason is more important, more 'True', more real, & most importantly, more beautiful, than the patterns on the glass, because it is the light behind it, shining through it, that makes it beautiful & meaningful. __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."