Rohirric and Elvish Verse - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 11-10-2004, 06:30 PM

Re-reading "Three Elvish Verse Modes", an excellent essay by Patrick Wynne and Carl Hostetter, I was recently struck by something a bit peculiar. (Apologies in advance for a somewhat pedantic question).

One of the verse modes of the title is "Minlamad thent / estent"; the name derives from the text "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" in HoMe XI. There Tolkien states that the Narn of Turin was composed in Minlamad thent/estent, and notes also that this form of verse was very similar to that with which Aelfwine was familiar. Wynne and Hostetter infer from this, correctly I think, that Minlamad thent/estent was intended to closely resemble Old English alliterative verse. This is indeed supported by the original (1920s) lay of the Children of Hurin, which was indeed written in alliterative verse. The statement from "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" can thus be seen as an indication that Tolkien had not changed his mind on this subject in the intervening years ("Aelfwine and Dirhaval" dates from the 1950s).

What I find interesting is that Tolkien also used alliterative verse in another capacity: as the form employed by the Rohirrim in LotR. This seems natural enough in itself, since the Rohirrim bear some obvious similarities with the Anglo-Saxons, and Tolkien "translated" their language into Old English. But it got me wondering: how is it that alliterative verse is to be associated both with the Elves and with the Rohirrim? Is it possible that Minlamad thent/estent was known to the early Eotheod and had an influence on their poetic development? And if not, what are we to make of the fact that Tolkien chose to represent two distinct verse modes with alliterative verse? Are we to infer a similarity between the original Rohirric and Elvish verse? If so, what kind? If not, then why did Tolkien choose to represent them the same way?

11-10-2004, 06:30 PM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Rohirric and Elvish Verse Re-reading "Three Elvish Verse Modes", an excellent essay by Patrick Wynne and Carl Hostetter, I was recently struck by something a bit peculiar. (Apologies in advance for a somewhat pedantic question). One of the verse modes of the title is "Minlamad thent / estent"; the name derives from the text "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" in HoMe XI. There Tolkien states that the Narn of Turin was composed in Minlamad thent/estent, and notes also that this form of verse was very similar to that with which Aelfwine was familiar. Wynne and Hostetter infer from this, correctly I think, that Minlamad thent/estent was intended to closely resemble Old English alliterative verse. This is indeed supported by the original (1920s) lay of the Children of Hurin, which was indeed written in alliterative verse. The statement from "Aelfwine and Dirhaval" can thus be seen as an indication that Tolkien had not changed his mind on this subject in the intervening years ("Aelfwine and Dirhaval" dates from the 1950s). What I find interesting is that Tolkien also used alliterative verse in another capacity: as the form employed by the Rohirrim in LotR. This seems natural enough in itself, since the Rohirrim bear some obvious similarities with the Anglo-Saxons, and Tolkien "translated" their language into Old English. But it got me wondering: how is it that alliterative verse is to be associated both with the Elves and with the Rohirrim? Is it possible that Minlamad thent/estent was known to the early Eotheod and had an influence on their poetic development? And if not, what are we to make of the fact that Tolkien chose to represent two distinct verse modes with alliterative verse? Are we to infer a similarity between the original Rohirric and Elvish verse? If so, what kind? If not, then why did Tolkien choose to represent them the same way?