Elwe Singollo

[Beanamir of Gondor]

Originally Posted by sleepless_elf

are you doing a thesis on sil?

Yes. Specifically, the idea of mythology versus legend versus history in the Silm.

Originally Posted by skip spence

To me it's Beren who is the real fool here dragging those he loves out on a hopeless quest. If you want to die for your lover don't take innocent people with you. Later Luthien says, 'forget about the Silmaril and we'll live together in the Woods', but oh no, Beren rather drags her into the deepest pits of Angband than retract his stubborn and hasty promise, one which already has been the death of Finrod Felagund and all his companions. What a selfish bastard he is! And Thingol is made out to be the fool. Jeez!

Can't really disagree with that, I guess. It does seem pretty much like the most hopeless mission ever given to anyone, and Beren had to have known it. At the same time, though... Thingol himself was practically ensnared by Melian, back during the Great Journey, and could we expect her daughter to be any less entrancing? (Meh. That wasn't said very well.)

I honestly can't remember the first point at which Thingol learns about the Oath of Feanor and the Kinslaying. Because if he knew about that oath, why on earth would he have had Beren go after the Silmaril? The Silm specifically states that when he pronounced Beren's mission, Thingol "wrought the doom of Doriath, and was ensnared in the curse of Mandos." And his possession of the Silmaril, later on (which killed him), when he certainly knows about the oath, just seems petty and greedy, to me.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Take Thingol, for instance. He is born in Cuivienen before the sun or moon are even in orbit, he is chosen to be spokesman of his clan, he travels to Valinor, returns to become king of the Sindar in the great realm of Doriath, marries Melian the Maia, and his child is the most beautiful creature in all creation. Think about it, how do you even dare speak to someone like that if you are a mere mortal? I am not saying ol' Thingol didn't need a major attitude adjustment, but you have to take his actions into context.

This is very true. Even Elrond, who comes across as quite stern in LotR, isn't insulted when Bilbo writes the poem about Earendil in Rivendell. It really is quite cheeky, when you think about it... but Elrond is clearly a lot more patient than Thingol would have been!

My only argument: in my mind, Thingol is just as far below Melian as Beren is below Luthien. Beren is described as the greatest Man who ever walked in Middlearth, and Thingol as the greatest Elf, save perhaps Feanor: that description is somewhere, skip spence, I know what you're referring to but can't find it.
Yet while he scorns Beren's love for his daughter, many eons before, Thingol thought nothing of abandoning the entire host of the Teleri to romp in Doriath with Melian. (Okay, so that's a bit vulgar: they actually just stood there for a very long time with the stars wheeling overhead, then settled in Doriath.) He quite literally left the Teleri to his brother, and many of them missed the ships going to Valinor as they continued to search for him! That, to me, is one of his most inexcusable actions, regardless of whether or not it was the will of the Valar for them to wed and protect Doriath. Mmphm.