Cirdan's appearance

[Galin]

Originally Posted by elbenprincess

a question about cirdan, was he an elf who awoke at cuivienen?

It is not said that he awoke, specifically.

If not, what became of the 144 elfes who awoke at first? Why is not some elf of the first generation the king of the differnet groups, but Finwe (at that time), Olwe and Ingwe, I guess the second generation?

It's interesting that JRRT appears to have considered Ingwe one of the Unbegotten in The Lhammas (see The Lost Road, here from CJRT's commentary): 'It is now told that Ingwe was not only the high-king of the Eldalie, but was 'the oldest of all Elves, for he first awoke.').


But I would say Tolkien abandoned this. I think JRRT later came to believe that a fairy tale treatment of such an ancient matter worked well, and it might serve to improve the mystery of the ambassadors too. Keep in mind the nature of the sources for the legend of the awakening: an Elvish fairytale '... preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar' Is such a text meant to contains truths about the Unbegotten? Hmm.

Perhaps Ingwe will not certainly be noted as one of the Unbegotten, and even he will have a relationship (in The Shibboleth of Feanor for instance, Ingwe is said to have a sister) which -- when compared to the legend of the Unbegotten at least -- might raise questions concerning whether or not he awoke (I don't imagine that Tolkien thought of the earlier texts specifically, as there is quite a gap of years between them in any event, but I do think that when he decided to deal with the Unbegotten in Cuivienyarna the ambassadors might generally have come to mind).

In a sense we have Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe from history (albeit very deep legendary history), with no reference stating that they awoke (as formerly for Ingwe), and from an arguably 'less scholarly' side of preserved lore (but still not to be ignored): Imin 'One', Tata 'Two', Enel 'Three', from fairy tale.

I think the new idea was that even the Elves -- who might preserve history and tales from very distant times (especially from a mannish perspective) -- even they retained their own origin in an Elvish fairy tale, as here I guess that there was to be no competing account from a loremaster of Eressea. The author of Quendi And Eldar mentions the legend, but still that's different from a full acount that is not: 'Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish 'fairytale' or child's tale, mingled with counting lore.' (JRRT wrote this on a copy of Cuivienyarna).

To my mind it's another brilliant decision to present the matter of the Unbegotten Elves from a source readers might tend to question -- in some measure anyway -- while at the same time still wonder what truths might have shaped it.


And here is another example where I think Tolkien desires certain areas of the deep past to remain a mystery. The very first Elves from the legend are not identified with any Elves from Quenta Silmarillion, nor is it explained what happened to 'Imin' for instance.


In Middle-earth there is lost history or lore, just as in the Primary World, and even the Elves only preserved so much.