The Afterlife, Reincarnation, and Courtly Love

[Idril]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

"Welcome Idril! I like your nickname!

I can't claim to be the History of ME expert (though some here are), but I'll try to give my two cents on this.

The souls of Men may leave the world upon death, which means that they leave the Halls of Mandos. I don't know where they go, probably to the Void since it's the only place we know about outside Ea. It is said that they will be in Iluvatar's "choir" and will make the second Music after Dagor Dagorath.

Thank you and mae govannen! I appreciate every two cents I can get since I am (obviously) no expert either. ; )

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Tolkien has repsented "Ea" as the embodiement and living out of a Grand Theme of music (cf "Music of the Ainur") - essentially a Drama or Story, designed by Eru and adorned by the actions of his created beings (from Ainur to Quendi, Atani, Dwarves, etc). Thus, he talks in some of his Letters (eg #200) about the Valar being required to "remain in it 'until the story was finished.

Forgive me if this question is redundant or has already answered in another form (it's been a while since I've read either The Silmarillion or The Lost Tales), but would the Valar cease to exist in the Second Music after Dagor Dagorath? I recently read "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" where Finrod describes the Eldar as being tethered to Arda (unlike Men), and Arda to the Valar. If the Valar/Arda cease to exist surely the Eldar will as well?

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Men (and Hobbits as a branch of Atani) have a special gift to be able to leave the story and step OUTSIDE (where they, perhaps, can watch the story unfold). Given that Tolkien was a devout Christian (& Catholic) it seems a fair presumption that, upon leaving Ea, they would dwell in the Halls of Eru (the "Void" simply being the places outside Ea that are not dwelling places of Eru and the Ainur).

As a practicing Christian it seems to me that the Void is an allusion to Purgatory, a sort of in between worlds. Tolkien, a Catholic, would have certainly believed in the existence of Purgatory (I personally am Methodist and do not). If the Void is Purgatory, between Arda/Aman, point A, and the Beyond, point B, what is point B? The time of Second Music-- a tertiary world equivalent to the Judeo-Christian "Heaven"? From the information you have given: Frodo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Boromir, and Aragorn will be seeing each other in the Afterlife. Gimli has a fighting chance since Eru granted the Dwarves a place in his Grand Music, as do Legolas and Gandalf, Immortals.

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

About Legolas being Oropher? I've never read anything by Tolkien that suggested such was the case. And, as Galadriel55 noted, Tolkien shifted to going with the rebodying of slain Eldar - which meant they were rebodied by the Valar in Valinor. Only in very unusual cases would they then manage to travel back to Middle Earth (Glorfindel is the only such case I'm aware of).

The inconsistency in canon is addressed by Christopher in the prologue to "Laws & Customs Among the Eldar." Is there an updated account of things that are set-in-stone canon published by C.T.? Thank you for your insight on Legolas and Oropher!

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

For your Q2, I think it's important to consider you are working from an extremely small sample-set. You mentioned three cases (Beren/Luthien, Tuor/Idril & Aragor/Arwen). I can think of exactly Two other cases in the whole history of Arda ...

• Imrazor and Mithrellas. Imrazor was, per legend, the father of the first lord of Dol Amroth. Mithrellas was a maiden companion of Nimrodel.
• Aegnor (brother of Finrod) and Andreth (women of the house of Beor)

The latter was never consumated, but the Athrabeth makes clear Aegnor's love for Andreth was real, and only wisdom led him to forbear - for Andreth's sake (a whole other discussion).

I had forgotten about Aegnor and Andreth. In "Laws & Customs" Tolkien makes note that marriages/consummation among the Valar only happen during times of peace. So yes, their love was real enough, but unfortunately destined to fail because of the Siege of Angband. My actual question which I failed to communicate: Is the love between female Eldar and male Edain an example of courtly love? Tolkien incorporated several customs of the Medieval Ages and literary devices of Epic poetry into his work (weregild is actually name-dropped by Boromir in FotR). I am curious if anyone else saw the correlation.