Lords and Ladies of the Rings

[the phantom]

Tolkien makes very little distinction between the Valar and the Maiar actually. The lesser Valar and the greater Maiar hardly had any distance in relative "greatness".

Yes, you're correct. There's a great thread authored by Obloquy that mentions that point (try searching in the books for the word incarnation to find it).

Once again, that may mean that we're underestimating Sauron. Maybe he had become more powerful than some of the Valar even (note I said more powerful, not greater). Maybe Manwe himself couldn't have willingly destroyed the ring. I had never even considered the Valar in this debate (because they're so far removed) but it would be really interesting if Sauron had indeed made the ring so well that even if the Valar wanted to destroy him they couldn't.

Ach! Don't you hate it when you argue ferociously for something, and then come to find out both parties are saying the same thing all along. How embarrassing. I really hate the way you phrased it though.

Well, not everyone can have the same style. That would make for a boring world. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]