Mechanical Monsters at the Fall of Gondolin? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-05-2002, 02:49 AM

I'm new to these boards, and admittedly don't know the ins and outs of HoMe that well. But it seems to me most folks are going about the mechanical dragon issue the wrong way. To me, the issue is not does the mechanical dragon thing pop up in later writings. That really is irrelevant IF the later writings are much shorter accounts, which in this case they are.

Shrinking something down to 77 Silm length, things like mechanical dragons had to go, whether he still conceived of them existing or not. You can't just suppose that he could have added a few extra words like change "dragons" to "dragons of iron" or whatever, because simply mentioning them as being made of iron isn't enough. In order to include them, you need to go into some detail to explain how they came to be, what they were all about, etc... and that's the kind of detail that gets dropped in a massive edit. Its a concept that either has to be done in full and properly explained, or dropped altogether - you can't just mention it in passing.

If you follow that same logic (no mention of thing X in later writings, therefore he must not have wanted it anymore), you're going to end up with a Silmarillion not much longer than the 77 one.

Are mechanical dragons an interesting thing that adds depth to an expanded Silm? Yes. Is there anything in later writings that explicitly shows he was against them that can't be explained away by simplication and editing needs? No. So why not keep them? I thought the purpose of this project was to create as expanded a Silm as could be reasonably justified, but it seems like different logic is being applied in this situation.

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02-05-2002, 02:49 AM	#11
Why Emus Guest Posts: n/a	I'm new to these boards, and admittedly don't know the ins and outs of HoMe that well. But it seems to me most folks are going about the mechanical dragon issue the wrong way. To me, the issue is not does the mechanical dragon thing pop up in later writings. That really is irrelevant IF the later writings are much shorter accounts, which in this case they are. Shrinking something down to 77 Silm length, things like mechanical dragons had to go, whether he still conceived of them existing or not. You can't just suppose that he could have added a few extra words like change "dragons" to "dragons of iron" or whatever, because simply mentioning them as being made of iron isn't enough. In order to include them, you need to go into some detail to explain how they came to be, what they were all about, etc... and that's the kind of detail that gets dropped in a massive edit. Its a concept that either has to be done in full and properly explained, or dropped altogether - you can't just mention it in passing. If you follow that same logic (no mention of thing X in later writings, therefore he must not have wanted it anymore), you're going to end up with a Silmarillion not much longer than the 77 one. Are mechanical dragons an interesting thing that adds depth to an expanded Silm? Yes. Is there anything in later writings that explicitly shows he was against them that can't be explained away by simplication and editing needs? No. So why not keep them? I thought the purpose of this project was to create as expanded a Silm as could be reasonably justified, but it seems like different logic is being applied in this situation.