Aelfwine and Dirhaval - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**lindil** · 03-29-2001, 03:28 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
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The last mention of the mariner Aelfwine/Eriol that I know of is a post LotR intro to the longer Narn of the the Children of Hurin written in the Post -LotR phase of the Silmarillion.
and published in War of the Jewels [complete lack of prior mention of this by CRT really makes me wonder what other little bombshells might be laying around waiting for the Vinyar Tengwar folks].

So I am interested on folks thoughts on the Eriol fragments/links do any of them still have a place in 'canonical silm' .

Of course one could just decide to create a silm w/these elements retained , but just how much if any was left in JRRt's later conceptions.

It ends on p.313 w/ '...and such lore as I[aelfwine] found in Eressea'.

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-29-2001, 07:33 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 771</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

Sorry Lindil, at least possibly incorrect as to last mention of Aelfwine. See HoME 12, "Last writings" section, entitled Dangweth Pengolod, a discussion between Pengolod and Aelfwine attributed by CT to JRRT between 1951 and 1959.

"Dirhavel" is only attributed as "post-LoTR" which means mid-1940s on. Its not clear which is later but it seems CT at least suspects Dangweth is the most recent per his title "Last writings".

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

**lindil** · 03-29-2001, 09:23 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 550</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

So it seems Mithadan,
But CRT seems strangely silent as to the presence of Aelfwine so late in the game. Does he mention any of this at length in IV or V that anyone is awarte of?

Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-29-2001, 09:31 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 773</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

Not to my recollection. Thus my opinion in the Eriol thread that Aelfwine was omitted, not rejected.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

**lindil** · 03-29-2001, 10:23 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path
Posts: 551</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

So you would include the story [albeit w/ needed modifications] of his arrivig at Tol Eressea via Shipwreck and such?
I always found that a beautiful story.

lindil

</p>

***Mithadan*** · 03-29-2001, 01:09 PM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 776</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

Include as Canon? I don't think so. Its not at all clear what JRRT had in mind when he adverted to Aelfwine in his later writings. Whether he intended to re-insert Aelfwine in connection with the Tales of the Elder Days or not and if yes then how is entirely unclear. Also, the implication is that the Silm. comes to us via Bilbo's books of Elvish lore. Can this be reconciled with Aelfwine? I also like both the conception and the character as is evidenced in my writings.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

Pengolodh · 04-17-2001, 09:01 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

Also, the implication is that the Silm. comes to us via Bilbo's books of Elvish lore. Can this be reconciled with Aelfwine? I also like both the conception and the character as is evidenced in my writings.

No, I do not believe it can be reconciled, although this would mean the omittance of my namesake. A danger in creating this "new" Sil is that one may want to include too much of the wonderful tales that are in HoMe X, XI and XII.

The Aelfwine framework would make things unnecessarily complicated IMO. Of course, some of Pengolodh's individual teachings might be included. Cian, a most brilliant poster, has suggested that the Aelfwine tales might be included as separate translations that Bilbo never got around to? Would that be a good idea?

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

Orald · 04-17-2001, 10:34 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice
Posts: 778</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

LOL, "Cian, a most briliant poster" very cute.

When Saulotus posted here(I wish he still did). He proposed the idea that there where different versions of the stories being told. I think keeping Pengolodh and those versions would be more suitable than the Bilbo versions since Pengolodh is an elf and is less biased compared to Bilbo.

Cheers

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

Pengolodh · 04-17-2001, 10:56 AM

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 11</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval

Have you posted on Tolkienonline.com as Irmo?

Why did "Saulotus" leave the project? As for Cian, I give credit were credit is due <img src=wink.gif ALT="

">

As for several versions of the story, I do believe that may very well complicate matters to the extreme for more inexperienced readers. The Sil is already a gigantic task for the average LoTR reader.

Cheers

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 4/17/01 1:01:27 pm

Mhoram · 03-14-2002, 02:28 AM

Quote:

As for several versions of the story, I do believe that may very well complicate matters to the extreme for more inexperienced readers. The Sil is already a gigantic task for the average LoTR reader.

Agreed. I've hit on this point a lot recently, sorry. But adding this in would be like adding all the early conceptions of the LotR in, it's over doing it. If a reader wants to read about Eriol, let him read HoME.

Westerly Wizard · 10-12-2002, 11:04 PM

As a new comer to this particular site, although well versed in Tolkien and Tolkien discussion, I would like to add that it seems the most likely result of the Aelfwine stories is that it was abandoned by Tolkien when he began to make the stories more fictional than just entirely mythological in nature (he kept it a mythology, but not one that was to actually be a mythology for England in the same category with the Classical mythologies).; thus, there was no need for someone to complete the tasks of Aelfwine who found out the true existence of the legends .

**lindil** · 10-13-2002, 01:51 AM

Greetings and welcome to the Silm forum Westerly Wizard.

The more I have read up on it, the more I must agree w/ most of the earlier posters that Aelfwine can not be the primary source of the Silm.

Bilbo indeed is credited w/ being the translator in Imladris of "Translations from the Elvish".

Thus the working title for our project which seeks to create a greater [i.e. expanded] Silmarillion.

[ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

03-29-2001, 03:28 AM	#1
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Aelfwine and Dirhaval <font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 546</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> The last mention of the mariner Aelfwine/Eriol that I know of is a post LotR intro to the longer Narn of the the Children of Hurin written in the Post -LotR phase of the Silmarillion. and published in War of the Jewels [complete lack of prior mention of this by CRT really makes me wonder what other little bombshells might be laying around waiting for the Vinyar Tengwar folks]. So I am interested on folks thoughts on the Eriol fragments/links do any of them still have a place in 'canonical silm' . Of course one could just decide to create a silm w/these elements retained , but just how much if any was left in JRRt's later conceptions. It ends on p.313 w/ '...and such lore as I[aelfwine] found in Eressea'. Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-29-2001, 07:33 AM	#2
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 771</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval Sorry Lindil, at least possibly incorrect as to last mention of Aelfwine. See HoME 12, "Last writings" section, entitled Dangweth Pengolod, a discussion between Pengolod and Aelfwine attributed by CT to JRRT between 1951 and 1959. "Dirhavel" is only attributed as "post-LoTR" which means mid-1940s on. Its not clear which is later but it seems CT at least suspects Dangweth is the most recent per his title "Last writings". --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-29-2001, 09:23 AM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 550</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval So it seems Mithadan, But CRT seems strangely silent as to the presence of Aelfwine so late in the game. Does he mention any of this at length in IV or V that anyone is awarte of? Lindil is oft found on posting on the Silmarillion Project at the Barrowdowns and working on a new Elven/Christian discussion board<a href="http://beta.ezboard.com/bosanwekenta" >Osanwe-Kenta</a> 'The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night, and awaken early before dawn- exchanging lore and wisdom such as they possessed , so that they should not fall back into the mean and low estate of those , who never knew or more sadly still, had indeed rebelled against the Light.' </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-29-2001, 09:31 AM	#4
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 773</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval Not to my recollection. Thus my opinion in the Eriol thread that Aelfwine was omitted, not rejected. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-29-2001, 10:23 AM	#5
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Seeker of the Straight Path Posts: 551</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval So you would include the story [albeit w/ needed modifications] of his arrivig at Tol Eressea via Shipwreck and such? I always found that a beautiful story. lindil </p> __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

03-29-2001, 01:09 PM	#6
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,393	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist Posts: 776</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval Include as Canon? I don't think so. Its not at all clear what JRRT had in mind when he adverted to Aelfwine in his later writings. Whether he intended to re-insert Aelfwine in connection with the Tales of the Elder Days or not and if yes then how is entirely unclear. Also, the implication is that the Silm. comes to us via Bilbo's books of Elvish lore. Can this be reconciled with Aelfwine? I also like both the conception and the character as is evidenced in my writings. --Mithadan-- "The Silmarils with living light were kindled clear, and waxing bright shone like stars that in the North above the reek of earth leap forth." </p> __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

04-17-2001, 09:01 AM	#7
Pengolodh Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 51	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased Posts: 10</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval Also, the implication is that the Silm. comes to us via Bilbo's books of Elvish lore. Can this be reconciled with Aelfwine? I also like both the conception and the character as is evidenced in my writings. No, I do not believe it can be reconciled, although this would mean the omittance of my namesake. A danger in creating this "new" Sil is that one may want to include too much of the wonderful tales that are in HoMe X, XI and XII. The Aelfwine framework would make things unnecessarily complicated IMO. Of course, some of Pengolodh's individual teachings might be included. Cian, a most brilliant poster, has suggested that the Aelfwine tales might be included as separate translations that Bilbo never got around to? Would that be a good idea? "In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

04-17-2001, 10:34 AM	#8
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shadow of Malice Posts: 778</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval LOL, "Cian, a most briliant poster" very cute. When Saulotus posted here(I wish he still did). He proposed the idea that there where different versions of the stories being told. I think keeping Pengolodh and those versions would be more suitable than the Bilbo versions since Pengolodh is an elf and is less biased compared to Bilbo. Cheers Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil be good to have been.</p>

04-17-2001, 10:56 AM	#9
Pengolodh Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 51	<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones Posts: 11</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE> Re: Aelfwine and Dirhaval Have you posted on Tolkienonline.com as Irmo? Why did "Saulotus" leave the project? As for Cian, I give credit were credit is due <img src=wink.gif ALT=""> As for several versions of the story, I do believe that may very well complicate matters to the extreme for more inexperienced readers. The Sil is already a gigantic task for the average LoTR reader. Cheers "In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000097>Pengolod h</A> at: 4/17/01 1:01:27 pm

10-12-2002, 11:04 PM	#11
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	As a new comer to this particular site, although well versed in Tolkien and Tolkien discussion, I would like to add that it seems the most likely result of the Aelfwine stories is that it was abandoned by Tolkien when he began to make the stories more fictional than just entirely mythological in nature (he kept it a mythology, but not one that was to actually be a mythology for England in the same category with the Classical mythologies).; thus, there was no need for someone to complete the tasks of Aelfwine who found out the true existence of the legends . __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-13-2002, 01:51 AM	#12
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Greetings and welcome to the Silm forum Westerly Wizard. The more I have read up on it, the more I must agree w/ most of the earlier posters that Aelfwine can not be the primary source of the Silm. Bilbo indeed is credited w/ being the translator in Imladris of "Translations from the Elvish". Thus the working title for our project which seeks to create a greater [i.e. expanded] Silmarillion. [ October 13, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

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