The role of Fate in Middle Earth

[doug*platypus]

Goodness me, it's dusty inside this thread! Finally something as confusing as my wondering whether this forum actually exists in four dimensions, or whether I've somehow stepped out of reality, or if reality needs to be redefined or if anyone can explain... ah...

Oh, yeah, I think the Bilbo/Gandalf analogy is excellent. Interesting, isn't it that Bilbo is drawn into the Fate of the Ring almost as the anti-Gollum. The hobbit-like Gollum becomes embroiled in the affairs of the "great", and soon after Bilbo does, in a way redeeming his kind, or possibly assisting the end result of Smeagol's life, the destruction of the Ring. The quote from Silmarillion P22 lends us to believe that Men, and hobbits by association or assumption, are exempt from Fate.

The purpose of Eru is not made clear even to the Valar, not even completely to Mandos. In my opinion, this is the condition that makes the co-existence of Fate and Free Will possible. Where someone, unexpected by the Valar, acts outside of Fate and are seen to have Free Will, I still think that they are accomplishing the purpose of Iluvatar. Bilbo was completely free in his decision to follow the Dwarves. He is never said to have been influenced by a divine power. But if you believe that he was created by Eru, then surely he has been made in such a mould that he will be likely to do as he did and join the adventure, without being influenced by outside forces.

Several times in the Silmarillion, the gods such as Ulmo will put thoughts into the heads of the Elves or the Atani, giving them words to speak or actions to follow. It is not this way with Bilbo. I think that he is exempt from Fate, but that his Free Will has been given to him by Iluvatar. He accomplishes the purpose of Iluvatar on his own, without the power of suggestion. So he is above the control of the Valar, but still a part of the Theme of Iluvatar. Given the nature of the Themes in the Ainulindale, which ordained events up until the end of time, I think it would be wrong to say that nothing happened without Iluvatar's foreknowledge of it. He did not make Bilbo do what he did, but was aware that it would happen.

[HerenIstarion]

Sweeping the dust once again

[Mithalwen]

Teh twist of fate in the Lord of the Rings that interests me - and ties in to this week's chapter which I shall have to read incase it provides enlightenment - is the arrival of the "unsummoned" participants at the Council of Elrond. Gimli and Legolas' timely arrivals may be attributed to the unfolding of events - the visit of Sauron's emissary and Gollum's escape. Boromir is a different matter. HE was summoned by a dream but the fact that it was Faramir received the dream first and more frequently might indicate that Boromir was defying fate by taking his brother's place. This raises various interesting questions. Because I can't help thinking that Boromir's "treachery"was vital for the success of the quest ( a possible paralel would be Judas Iscariot! - whose betrayal was a vital component to bring about the sacrifice of the Messiah and so universal redemption - though I am a better Tolkien scholar than I am a theologian so I will get back to the point ).

If Faramir had been part of the Fellowship there would have been a different discussion at Parth Galen or none at all. Either they would have all carried on together towards Mordor and would have not stopped so long - though it is quite possible that they would have merely delayed rather than avoided an encounter ith the Uruks. Or they would have divided - if Aragorn was speaking honestly when he says that he would have gone on with Frodo, Sam and Gimli - and there would have entailed a different argument if Merry and Pippin refused to comply.

This might have given Frodo grounds to slip off alone in which case the course of the book might not be so much disrupted UNTIL he reached Ithilien where he would surely encounter Boromir .... who is hightly unlikely to have reacted in the same way as his brother in the same situation. I doubt that Frodo would have been allowed to continue his journey and that Gollum's life would have been spared.

Of course if all the company had continued together, events would naturally have taken a different course. If Saurman's Urks had caughtup - would the united fellowship have been enough to see them off? That is, I think unlikely. The ring would have been taken and the free peoples caught between the Red Eye and White Hand. Even if they avoided death or capture on this occasion it would have been a larger and more conspicuous company approaching Mordor. Not only would there have been no distraction of the capture of Merry and Pippin but probably no Ent involvement, probably no Rohirrim left to ride to the Pelennor, and no Army of the dead , and with Minas Tirith downfallen no Gondor to raise a final army to draw the reamioning armies out of Mordor. Even if the fellowship somehow achieved the quest (and I feel that this is so unlikely to be hardly worth contemplating in these circumstances) - I think so much would have been destroyed that it would be a Pyrrhic victory.

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

[Imladris]

The word doom is mentioned in the Sil about...forty something times, not to mention the word fate.

Examples of the terms fate and Doom in the Sil:

his hair as grey silver, tallest of all the Children of Iluvatar; and a high doom was before him.

This was when Elwe awoke from his trance when he saw Melian. This was before he became Thingol, before he saw Beren and asked for the Silmaril, before he refused to give the Dwarves the Silmaril, before the dwarves slew him in Doriath. Yet before he had a chance to make choices, a high doom was before him -- he had no choice in the matter.

Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your [Feanor's] road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee.

The word tense is very interesting to me. Tirion gives Manwe's message that Feanor should not go forth (after Morgoth if I recall correctly). Yet he says that his road leads to sorrow, not that his road willlead to sorrow if he chooses to go forth. *shrugs*

To me shall Feanor come soon.

My point in quoting these several pasages is this: the roads of men and elves are layed before them and they have no other choice but travel it (in a way it reminds me of the Fates' thread of life...your thread is your thread and it is spun for you).

The reason I quote these passages is because The Silmarillion is the building blocks, the Foundation (didn't he write it before or during LotR?). I believe that what is said in the Silmarillion can be used (in most ways) for LotR.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen[/QUOTE

While it seems possible that Frodo was "meant" to meet Faramir , I can't help thinking that fate got it wrong if it meant Faramir to be in the Fellowship - maybe fate knew that the bossy big brother would pull rank. Perhaps someone else can interpret this more clearly. Another possibility is that Fate was sending the son of the Steward to bring the heir of Isildur back to Gondor - the first line of the poem is "Seek for the Sword that was broken". What was this fate and did it intervene to delay Boromir? If he hadn't lost his horse at Tharbad he would surely have arrived way in advance of Frodo.

I am sure there are things I haven't thought of and I am beginning to confuse myself - so anyone..Help?!

I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but my thoughts are these: fate meant Faramir and Boromir both to dream the dream, and it also meant for Boromir to become part of the Fellowship.

Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea, and evil yet be good to have been.

[Mithalwen]

I really meant that since Faramir, received the dream first and frequently, it would suggest that he was the one who should seek for the sword, and if he had done so the consequences I suggested might have come to pass to the ruin of all..... but I may well be reading too much into this. . Also, if Boromir had not lost his horse, he would surely have reached Rivendell long before Frodo even set out. (Gandalf (albeit on Shadowfax) managed Rohan to Rivendell via the shire in 25 days), so I wondered if the message was primarily to find Aragorn rather than the ring.