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Old 11-18-2002, 01:18 PM   #23
Mister Underhill
Dread Horseman
 
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Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Behind you!
Posts: 2,744
Mister Underhill has been trapped in the Barrow!
Sting

Hey burra,

I’ve been out of the loop for a few weeks but in (partially) catching up, I’ve noticed you’ve been on a hobby-horse about Eru not being subtle in this and other threads. But several things occurred to me:
Quote:
One must keep in mind, however, that to a great extent Eru did not take part in thee music. The overall themes were ceratainly his, I would never question that, but all of the subtle bits, the melodies and what have you were the work of the Ainur.
I wonder what makes you say this with such conviction and certainty. Don’t Silm references like “And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me...” and “This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.” contradict you?

Also, I’d like to see you support claims like these:
Quote:
The only time that a Man becomes entangles in the Music is when he has a lot to do with any of the Immortals.

... Gandalf also lacks Free Will.

Frodo only lost his free will when he started hanging out with Gandalf...
Lastly, I’m not sure what definition of “subtle” you’re working off, but several of these from OED seem to apply to Tolkien’s Head Honcho and his creations:

Fine or delicate, esp. to such an extent as to elude observation or analysis.

Of craftsmen, etc.: Skilful, clever, expert, dexterous.

Of things: Characterized by cleverness or ingenuity in conception or execution; cleverly designed or executed, artfully contrived.

Of persons, their faculties, actions: Characterized by penetration, acumen, or discrimination. Now with implication of (excessive) refinement or nicety of thought, speculation, or argument.

Working imperceptibly or secretly.
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