The sinking of Numenor - a lesson to whom?

[Galorme]

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

[Anárion Cúthalion]

Originally Posted by Galorme

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

I'll grant you, his/her tone was a little off-putting, but, genuine 'fear' of God is more akin to very, very strong reverence. Humility, if you will. I think it was mostly the fault of the Numenorean Fleet and their King which sealed the fate of the whole nation on the home island; their hubris, their pride and vanity all conspired to bring them to a place where Sauron could bend them to his will. Or at least to where he could plant the seed of boldness that drove them to pursue what they were already thinking. The people on Numenor are fine now, where ever Eru wants them to be. The Fleet, on the other hand, is in a form of living (well, sleeping) hell until the proverbial sounding of the trumpet.

[Lalwendë]

There are some facts to be had on the history of Numenor which help. The first is that it wasn't a gift of Eru, but of the Valar. The rules about not setting foot on the shores of Valinor (technically, not leaving sight of the shores of Numenor) were also set by the Valar, and not Eru. It was also Manwe who called upon Eru to do something about Ar-Pharazon's expedition (possibly following Amandil's journey to Valinor to parley with the bosses?).

If you read the discussion between Amandil and Elendil (which I was going to put in a quote but it's maybe so long as to be a bit close to breaching copyright ) then there is a hint that Amandil, if he indeed got to Valinor (this is kept purposefully shady) asked Manwe to get rid of Numenor. Read it, I want to see what you guys think.

Here's a little, and the most intriging part:

Seek out the Faithful that are known still to be true, and let them join you in secret, if they are willing to go with you, and share in your design.'
'And what shall that design be?' said Elendil.
'To meddle not in the war, and to watch,' answered Amandil. 'Until I return I can say no more. But it is most like that you shall fly from the Land of the Star with no star to guide you; for that land is defiled. Then you shall lose all that you have loved, foretasting death in life, seeking a land of exile elsewhere. But east or west the Valar alone can say.'
Then Amandil said farewell to all his household, as one that is about to die. 'For,' said he, 'it may well prove that you will see me never again; and that I shall show you no such sign as Earendil showed long ago. But hold you ever in readiness, for the end of the world that we have known is now at hand.'

Reading on from there, the Valar clearly did all they could within their remit (not being permitted to meddle with Men) to stop the Numenoreans from their plans, even causing an earthquake, which just leaves Sauron looking even cooler to Ar-Pharazon and his mates in a fabulously diabolical scene where he defies lightning. So they called on Eru.

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure. I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:

But Ar-Pharazon the King and the mortal warriors that had set foot upon the land of Aman were buried under falling hills: there it is said that they lie imprisoned in the Caves of the Forgotten, until the Last Battle and the Day of Doom.

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

[alatar]

Thanks for the great post, Lalwendë.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There are some facts to be had on the history of Numenor which help. The first is that it wasn't a gift of Eru, but of the Valar. The rules about not setting foot on the shores of Valinor (technically, not leaving sight of the shores of Numenor) were also set by the Valar, and not Eru. It was also Manwe who called upon Eru to do something about Ar-Pharazon's expedition (possibly following Amandil's journey to Valinor to parley with the bosses?).

I never saw it that way before. This is yet another blunder by the Valar. Seems that every time they intervene with lesser beings, those beings die. Thinking about it, maybe this is the way it is supposed to be, where Manwe et al are just greater versions of ourselves. We are all children of the One; some just have greater abilities/responsibilities, and when they make a mistake, the foundations of Arda shake. I guess that instead of seeing the Valar as perfect, we can see them as like us, trying to get it right but not always doing so.

Must be those lies of Melkor, making me think that they're all gods or something.

Reading on from there, the Valar clearly did all they could within their remit (not being permitted to meddle with Men) to stop the Numenoreans from their plans, even causing an earthquake, which just leaves Sauron looking even cooler to Ar-Pharazon and his mates in a fabulously diabolical scene where he defies lightning. So they called on Eru.

As you say, these beings may not be perfect and all-knowing as their PR makes it seem. Maybe Eru removed Aman from the world to protect US from them!

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure.

It does put the One in a bad light. Why did the innocents die? Was there some reason they had to be sacrificed?

I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

Omniscient beings don't get the pleasure of saying, "Oops! Sorry."

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:

Do we have any direct evidence that Eru actually exists? Or is it all based on hearsay via the Valar? What if they, consciously or subconsciously, created this overbeing as a useful tool? When things get really bad, they can blame him. No one's the wiser.

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

One would hope not. But I thought that not all warriors were so entombed, but just those few that set foot to Aman with the King?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Lalwende

If you read the discussion between Amandil and Elendil (which I was going to put in a quote but it's maybe so long as to be a bit close to breaching copyright) then there is a hint that Amandil, if he indeed got to Valinor (this is kept purposefully shady) asked Manwe to get rid of Numenor. Read it, I want to see what you guys think.

Intriguing idea (), but there are other lines from the same passage that speak against it, I think.

If I thought that Manwe needed such a messenger, I would betray the king. For there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause. But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful.

I always saw Amandil's words to Elendil rather like a prophecy of some kind. Maybe it was because of this foreseeing that he felt the need to tell Manwe that not all Numenor had gone bad, and that it, or at least some of it, was still worth protecting.
When the Faithfuls are saved, the connection with Amandil's plea is stated again:

But whether or not it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor and Manwe hearkened to his prayer, by the grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day.

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru. The Faithfuls escaped because of Amandil's foresight and the sudden "great winds roaring from the west", which I suppose came from Manwe (and also because of Sauron's soldiers which forced Elendil to man the ships instead of just waiting in the harbour).

Originally Posted by alatar

Omniscient beings don't get the pleasure of saying, "Oops! Sorry."

But do they get the pleasure of saying, "Yeah, whatever."?

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru.

But wasn't it the Valar who called upon Eru? I think what they were saying was something like "We'll let these good people escape, and then we'll let Eru destroy Numenor however he wants."

[Macalaure]

Hmm... that interpretation seems to be valid, too. I would still say that "by the grace of the Valar Elendil and his sons and their people were spared from the ruin of that day." suggests a more direct involvement of the Valar with the rescue of the Faithfuls, though.

edit: note also that in the paragraphs following the Valar's plea - the ones that describe the imprisonment of Pharazôn's army, the removal of Aman, and the drowning of Númenor - there is no reference to the Valar at all.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, this is also something which belongs in with your "Facts about Númenor": It's very often overlooked that it was the Valar who saved the Faithfuls, and not Eru. The Faithfuls escaped because of Amandil's foresight and the sudden "great winds roaring from the west", which I suppose came from Manwe (and also because of Sauron's soldiers which forced Elendil to man the ships instead of just waiting in the harbour).

I think you mean that it was the Faithful that saved the Faithful. If the Valar were involved, there'd be some floating island involved . Manwe's eastward wind was to slow the progress of Ar-Pharazon (or at least to give his rowers something to do). This same wind pushed the Faithful to safety; sure, but if they were still on Numenor, no wind would have pushed them across so far a sea.

But do they get the pleasure of saying, "Yeah, whatever."?

"My ways are not your ways, and I like drowning things."

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by alatar

I think you mean that it was the Faithful that saved the Faithful. If the Valar were involved, there'd be some floating island involved . Manwe's eastward wind was to slow the progress of Ar-Pharazon (or at least to give his rowers something to do). This same wind pushed the Faithful to safety; sure, but if they were still on Numenor, no wind would have pushed them across so far a sea.

Umm, but...

Thus the fleets of the Númenóreans moved against the menace of the West; and there was little wind,...
...
For a wind arose in the east and it wafted them away;

...the wind was still or even came out of the east. I agree, of course, that the decision to be on the ships instead of on Númenor saved them. Without the special wind, however, that would very likely not have been enough.

Originally Posted by alatar

"My ways are not your ways, and I like drowning things."

Exactly.

Well, my nice little theory stands and falls with what Eru was thinking, which is the case with every theory about the destruction of Númenor. Sadly, that's guesswork entirely.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I find it hard to take that Eru would do this in order to teach Men a lesson, as those who were doing wrong were killed, along with a lot of innocents - not just in Numenor but also in Middle-earth as that too suffered huge floods and earthquakes - and who would there be to learn from this? Plus it would put Eru in the position of being an unpleasant figure. I'm quite happy to go along with Macalaure's idea that Eru did not intend to kill these people, just to change the shape of the world (which was something the Valar could not do).

There was plenty of collateral damage by Yahweh in the bible. I mean really, actually count the amount of massacres Yahweh not only condoned, but ordered, and you will be amazed. God-sponsored genocide in the bible took no account of young or old, men, women, children or infants. The innocent fell with the guilty, unless they were the chosen, and in Tolkien's case the chosen were the Faithful, and they were spared.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

In matter of fact, the perpetrators weren't really punished. Sauron got a fright and legged it from the ruins, while Ar-Pharazon and his Men are entombed in Valinor waiting for the final day, in a strong echo of Loki waiting for Ragnarok:...

Sauron cannot be technically killed, can he? So disembodying him was about all one could do. And I think the greatest mortal king of the Second Age being buried under a hill for eternity does have some poetic justice. I mean, it's almost merciful. In a Christian sense, Ar-Pharazon would have face the eternal torments of Hell in the same circumstance.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

Again, taken in context with the biblical Yahweh, Eru comes off looking much less vengeful and spiteful...almost kindly, in a wrath of god, apocalyptic sense.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Would Eru be so petty as to try a school teacher trick of keeping the whole class behind because one of them has been shooting spit balls? Hmmm...

Perhaps the Numenorean people should never have existed at all; one could consider them a failed experiment on the part of the Valar, a phenomenon that defied went against too many facts of reality and that was, at its core, wrong. It had gone well at first, but eventually it became clear that Men were not meant to live in such privilege, so close to the Valar, with gifts of knowledge, strength, health, and the ability to die when they saw fit. It might seem callous or simplistic to just take the Numenoreans as a whole race, rather than on an individual basis, but this approach would be consistent with Tolkien's style of dealing with race in LOTR: he frequent relies on generalities. The Numenoreans had run their course, which really never should have been. In this light, Eru appears merciful for allowing a few of this problematic people group, this aberration, to continue.

(I've never thought about it this way before, and I haven't even entirely convinced myself yet - but I'm entertaining the notion.)

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Again, taken in context with the biblical Yahweh, Eru comes off looking much less vengeful and spiteful...almost kindly, in a wrath of god, apocalyptic sense.

It does seem that the biggest mention of "wrath" is the War of Wrath, which was a label the Elves gave to the mobilization of the Valar against Morgoth -- which, if I'm recalling correctly, didn't really sit terribly well with Eru; He would have preferred them to move against Melkor much sooner, and trust Him to protect the Eruhini rather than remove the Elves to Aman for safekeeping -- a move which ultimately led to not only the destruction of Beleriand, but the creation and downfall of Numenor. In the Akallabeth, it says:

Then Manwe upon the Mountain called upon Iluvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda. But Iluvatar showed forth his power and he changed the fashion of the world; and a great chasm opened in the sea between Numenor and the Deathless Lands, and the waters flowed down into it, and the noise and smoke of the cataracts went up into heaven, and the world was shaken...

There is no mention of wrath or punishment; in fact, there is no mention of whose idea this cataclysm was. Was it the Valar's, or Eru's? The whole "Numenor Project" was not terribly well conceived; it seems very much that the Valar, in attempting to reward the Edain, made another version of the same mistake they made with the Elves, allowing them to come close to something they then forbad them have. If they had learned about jealousy from Melkor and Feanor, they would have realized that this problem would almost inevitably arise among the Numenoreans. Sauron didn't cause them to yearn for immortality; he simply goaded them into an act he felt certain would bring about their complete destruction. It could be that the Valar, in setting aside their governance, asked for some kind of "final solution," without realizing the full implications of what they asked.

I also wonder just who wrote the account of the Akallabeth, particularly in regards to events in Aman (if we carry forward Tolkien's "conceit" of presuming these are actual historical documents). One can presume that Elendil and the other refugees were aware of the great wave and the inundation of the land, but who told the writer about the doings of the Valar? I can't imagine anyone in Middle-earth knew those particular details (unless Ulmo or Osse told them to Cirdan); is the document one peculiar to Elven historians in Aman?

Enquiring minds still want to know....

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

There is no mention of wrath or punishment; in fact, there is no mention of whose idea this cataclysm was. Was it the Valar's, or Eru's? The whole "Numenor Project" was not terribly well conceived; it seems very much that the Valar, in attempting to reward the Edain, made another version of the same mistake they made with the Elves, allowing them to come close to something they then forbad them have. If they had learned about jealousy from Melkor and Feanor, they would have realized that this problem would almost inevitably arise among the Numenoreans. Sauron didn't cause them to yearn for immortality; he simply goaded them into an act he felt certain would bring about their complete destruction. It could be that the Valar, in setting aside their governance, asked for some kind of "final solution," without realizing the full implications of what they asked.

This actually sounds quite good to me, or at least logical. You have to take into account that for Valar, the Children (be they Men or Elves) were still pretty much of an alien species, they knew very little about them, even after the few millenia of their existence, and even less about Men than about the Elves, of course. So the "Fëanor-mistake" you speak about would be actually pretty well explainable. Also, take into account that at least Manwë, and probably the other Valar too, from the large part, had very little idea about evil, I think it was mentioned somewhere that Manwë just couldn't get it how Melkor could have become the way he was (I think something like that is mentioned along the chaining of Melkor, although I am not sure whether that's the parcitular quote I have in mind). Anyway, the explanation of Valar's act as you outline it in the last sentence of the quote would once again make the most sense to me - what is clear to me is that Valar were desperate and did not know what to do anymore; that was the point beyond which they realised they couldn't reach. However, and that's the problem - to which we are returning all the time in this thread - is that I think it simply doesn't make sense, from our point of view (and neither of the solutions presented this far seemed 100% acceptable to me), that Valar sure didn't ask Eru to "do something" (or however they formulated it) which Eru would just do, destroying the Númenor as part of it - "collateral damage". Yes, it sounds the most sensible - but come on, don't you have the feeling that it's still weird? The crucial question is, don't tell me Eru couldn't have moved the rift a little bit more to the west or something like that (or created another to prevent the fall of Númenor). Don't tell me that you think it's like "okay, I take your resignation, Mr. Manwë. Btw, you fools placed Númenor at the worst spot in the sea, there's the great rift, look! - Splash!"
This is explainable only at the moment when we place, above omnipotent Eru, the even more omnipotent Tolkien, according to whose narrative purposes Eru must react. But as long as we wish to look from the in-Middle-Earth-perspective, we of course can't put any Tolkien into this. In that case, it feels more acceptable to me to simply say that "this is the way things go in M-E" and to say: the innocent people, men, women, children at Númenor had more than enough signs, from the knowledge about Aman and Sauron and Ban passed down to them by generations, through Elven counsels, to eagle-shaped clouds and lightnings. The lesson - "don't do that again once you come to Middle-Earth. Stop your Kings to go to Aman, to sacrifice people to Melkor, to listen to Saurons and stuff, if you have to. Or in the worst case, leave as far as you can from these wrongdoers, otherwise you may get caught in the wave." There was plenty time for those who were not totally corrupted to leave (the example of the Faithful shows that to save yourself was possible). It's a drastic, and quite merciless solution, but still, I would say, in the context of Middle-Earth more logical and easier to believe in than most of the speculation brought up by our postmodernistic minds. It's more medieval-ish, or ancient-ish, like the whole Middle-Earth is. Middle-Earth simply has its own rules, not ours, and these should be determined by what can we figure out from the story. Because, if you compare it, the tale of Tuor, who was sent to Gondolin also with a warning for the King, and maybe we could find some other similar tales, bears the same pattern. "Unheeded warning" is pretty cliché for this type of stories, so why couldn't it be also this case.

[alatar]

Nice posts!

I still think that Eru was allowing Manwe and the rest of the Valar make their own decisions and accept the consequences of the same. When Feanor left Aman, innocent blood was spilled, and this had an effect on all those present for all time.

Maybe Eru, much like Manwe in regards to Feanor, let Manwe take his own course in regards to the Edain, first in raising the Island of the Star, then later sinking it. Just as with Feanor's bad decisions, innocents die. Manwe's hands now are splattered with blood that won't be easy to wash off.

Manwe too is learning; let us hope to weather his mistakes.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Perhaps the Numenorean people should never have existed at all; one could consider them a failed experiment on the part of the Valar, a phenomenon that defied went against too many facts of reality and that was, at its core, wrong. It had gone well at first, but eventually it became clear that Men were not meant to live in such privilege, so close to the Valar, with gifts of knowledge, strength, health, and the ability to die when they saw fit. It might seem callous or simplistic to just take the Numenoreans as a whole race, rather than on an individual basis, but this approach would be consistent with Tolkien's style of dealing with race in LOTR: he frequent relies on generalities. The Numenoreans had run their course, which really never should have been. In this light, Eru appears merciful for allowing a few of this problematic people group, this aberration, to continue.

(I've never thought about it this way before, and I haven't even entirely convinced myself yet - but I'm entertaining the notion.)

This has made me think about the rights and wrongs of what the Valar did.

The Valar were quite cruel, providing Men with this island from which could be seen a tiny little glimpse of the Undying Lands, a place where the people are immortals. Not only that, but creating a place of near-perfection which only lacked that one ingredient which allowed the Men there to enjoy this paradise in eternity. Back in the 'real world', i.e. Middle-earth, life was still relatively gritty (even more so once the Edain upped sticks and abandoned the rest of the Men to their fate), but on Numenor it was great - just that they could only enjoy this 'jolly' of a life for a limited time.

Yet Eru had made Men in their nature mortals, and had made them that way because Eru saw their mortality as a gift. The Valar did not go against this, they could not change that, but they certainly tampered with it.

What happened in Numenor also gives you some background on why in later years the Elves tried to keep away from Men. It was quite possibly for the benefit of Men, not to torment them with this one thing they could not have.

I wouldn't say it was merciful for Eru to cause the cataclysm which sent Numenor to the watery depths, but it could certainly be argued that it was necessary for him to take the Undying Lands away from the sight of Men, for their own good.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

This has made me think about the rights and wrongs of what the Valar did.

The Valar were quite cruel, providing Men with this island from which could be seen a tiny little glimpse of the Undying Lands, a place where the people are immortals.

I would say the Valar were as equally short-sighted when they dragged off the Eldar from Middle-earth and kept them in Valinor (ostensibly for their own good). Granted, they earnestly wished to help the Eldar, but breaking up families in Cuivienen (remember, not all Elves wished to leave), and then practically ignoring those who stayed behind for many generations seems a bit callous.

Then of course fencing in creative, energetic folk like the Noldor was bound to cause friction eventually, even without Morgoth butting in. How long before the mean constraints of Valinor, however beautiful, would act as a catalyst for more adventurous Elves to yearn for more freedom? Galadriel, while not agreeing with Feanor and his sons, certainly longed for greater kingdoms to rule. In addition, Elves, like their mortal counterparts at times, seemed to always seek for that which they lost.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I would say the Valar were as equally short-sighted when they dragged off the Eldar from Middle-earth and kept them in Valinor (ostensibly for their own good). Granted, they earnestly wished to help the Eldar, but breaking up families in Cuivienen (remember, not all Elves wished to leave), and then practically ignoring those who stayed behind for many generations seems a bit callous.

Then of course fencing in creative, energetic folk like the Noldor was bound to cause friction eventually, even without Morgoth butting in. How long before the mean constraints of Valinor, however beautiful, would act as a catalyst for more adventurous Elves to yearn for more freedom? Galadriel, while not agreeing with Feanor and his sons, certainly longed for greater kingdoms to rule. In addition, Elves, like their mortal counterparts at times, seemed to always seek for that which they lost.

This adds grist to my mill that Being An Elf Would Suck. As if it's not bad enough being tied to the earth with no hope of a rest, and also being tied to whatever cataclysmic fate Eru has in store, the Valar come along like school prefects and stop you from venting your creative urges to the full through all the ages of your existence.

Would I have wanted to be one of the Moriquendi? Too right. I'd have tolerated Orc raids over beautiful boredom any day.

[sleepless_elf]

Originally Posted by Galorme

"The fear of God". Now that sounds just plain evil. The idea that there is a higher power who will punish you if you do wrong is just sick. Don’t you love Christianity?

In case you haven't guessed I am letting some of my Atheist beliefs infuence me here a tad.

hmm well if thats the logic, then why should the gouverment punish those who break the law? in essence they too are a higher power than us. however i do agree with you that the bible does make it sound like the god described in it is not perfect.


with regards to numenor, it was a neccessary act. it had to be done. however, what i found most sad about it is that the faithfull numenoreans suffered the worst out of it. because they had to live with the fact that their country of birth was no more. for all their faithfulness, they were exiled to middle earth!

just a side note, in the appendix of the lord of the rings, the tale of aragorn and arwen, didnt arwen clearly state that she felt sorry for even the corrupted numenoreans? '' as wicked fools i scorned them, but i pity them atlast! ''

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by sleepless_elf

hmm well if thats the logic, then why should the gouverment punish those who break the law? in essence they too are a higher power than us. however i do agree with you that the bible does make it sound like the god described in it is not perfect.

This might be off-topic, but I really have to set you straight on this one. The Bible uses language like "regret" and "repent" in reference to God in order to describe in human terms what appears to be a change in God's will. It's not, of course, and in the long run everything goes according to eternal plan.