Are Tolkiens Books Sexist? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Eve · 12-24-2001, 03:26 PM

Thing is, Tolkien was writing into a sexist tradition: epic, which has never been known for its thundering gender equality, and I don't recall much in his other great love, Old English (although I have to admit my knowledge of the latter is limited to having read Gawain and translated a few bits from the New Testament umpteen times as part of my English course). You've got about as many strong women characters as you do in your average epic, really: I admit to not having read many in years, but Dido's about it in the Aeneid (Lavinia too? the problem is that I haven't translated more than Book 4, and haven't read the whole thing in even longer). As for the Iliad, I'm trying to remember any women at all, apart from the ones being fought over (Helen, Briseis, does Cressida come into this version?) who are hardly major role models (especially considering that the Trojan War was a trade dispute, and Achilles dosen't seem to have been that interested in women anyway).

To be honest, my opinion is that Tolkien wasn't the most talented chap when it came to writing from inside a woman's head. I find a lot of the personal relations side of his work not totally convincing: Aragorn and Arwen are hardly passionate romance of the year, now, are they. but in general, he's writing in a world where women aren't very important. on the one hand he did create this world himself, which gives him less excuse. on the other, it's not as if he created it out of thin air, and both the literary traditions he was writing into and his own lifestyle aren't particularly keen on matriarchal societies etc.

how much was known about the ancient matriarchies when Tolkien was around, does anyone know? quite curious. Always interests me the way Mary Renault portrays them in her writings - which are all, at least the ones I've read, from the point of view of a man! would have been fascinating if Tolkien had been writing about that sort of thing. Of course, he'd have produced completely different works, which would have presumably had to tackle the religious bases, the sexual side, the fertility/vegetation/sacrifice side of things. doesn't really sound like him.

hey, not trashing him because of this, no one can cover everything, and he did a mammoth job!

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12-24-2001, 03:26 PM	#1
Eve Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 13	Thing is, Tolkien was writing into a sexist tradition: epic, which has never been known for its thundering gender equality, and I don't recall much in his other great love, Old English (although I have to admit my knowledge of the latter is limited to having read Gawain and translated a few bits from the New Testament umpteen times as part of my English course). You've got about as many strong women characters as you do in your average epic, really: I admit to not having read many in years, but Dido's about it in the Aeneid (Lavinia too? the problem is that I haven't translated more than Book 4, and haven't read the whole thing in even longer). As for the Iliad, I'm trying to remember any women at all, apart from the ones being fought over (Helen, Briseis, does Cressida come into this version?) who are hardly major role models (especially considering that the Trojan War was a trade dispute, and Achilles dosen't seem to have been that interested in women anyway). To be honest, my opinion is that Tolkien wasn't the most talented chap when it came to writing from inside a woman's head. I find a lot of the personal relations side of his work not totally convincing: Aragorn and Arwen are hardly passionate romance of the year, now, are they. but in general, he's writing in a world where women aren't very important. on the one hand he did create this world himself, which gives him less excuse. on the other, it's not as if he created it out of thin air, and both the literary traditions he was writing into and his own lifestyle aren't particularly keen on matriarchal societies etc. how much was known about the ancient matriarchies when Tolkien was around, does anyone know? quite curious. Always interests me the way Mary Renault portrays them in her writings - which are all, at least the ones I've read, from the point of view of a man! would have been fascinating if Tolkien had been writing about that sort of thing. Of course, he'd have produced completely different works, which would have presumably had to tackle the religious bases, the sexual side, the fertility/vegetation/sacrifice side of things. doesn't really sound like him. hey, not trashing him because of this, no one can cover everything, and he did a mammoth job!