"Oh no! Is he...?"

[Mister Underhill]

As a companion to doug*platypus's <A HREF="http://forum.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002565" TARGET=_blank>Where and Back Again?!</A> thread, this thread is designed to celebrate that wonderful old trick of making the audience fear that a major character has either died or is about to die. I think the trilogy collectively sets a record for most seeming deaths that is not likely to be broken anytime soon.<P>Without even having to think about it, there are at least three "Is he...?"'s for Frodo: (1) skewered by the cave troll, (2) stung by Shelob, (3) whoops! over the cliff and (almost) into the Fire.<P>Can you think of more "Is he...?"'s?

[Child of the 7th Age]

Mr. Underhill,<P>I assume we're talking movies here! PJ seems to take great joy in near misses.<P>This one is not precisely book canon, but what about Aragorn being thrown off the cliff into the water after being dragged by a warg? Only a magical nuzzle by his horse restored him to life.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

Well, here's a list from TORn that I just "happened" to have read not half an hour ago (I'm having too many strange coincidences in my life recently). <P>"CHARACTERS THOUGHT DEAD<P>1. LOTR has its fake death scenes! (Fake Death Syndrome) Let's see if we can count 'em all!<P>THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>All four hobbits killed in their beds by Nazgûl (for all of 10 seconds).<P>Frodo killed by cave troll.<P>The Nazgûl that jumped or burned at Weathertop/Amon Sul. A stretch perhaps for most except maybe the one that took it in the face.<P>The Balrog and Gandalf dying in Moria when they fall.<P>The Nazgûl drowning at Ford of Bruinen<P>Frodo "dies" by the river in Arwen's arms<P>Sam drowning</UL><P>THE TWO TOWERS<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>Pippin killed by horse stomping on him.<P>Merry and Pippin killed and burned in the pile by the Rohirrim (not by the Uruks).<P>Aragorn killed by fall from cliff.</UL><P>RETURN OF THE KING<P><UL TYPE=SQUARE>Faramir killed by the orcs of Osgiliath.<P>Frodo killed by Shelob.<P>Gollum killed by falling off the cliff.<P>Aragorn has vision of Arwen dying.<P>Merry "killed" on the battlefield.<P>Éowyn "killed" on the battlefield (more definite in the book)<P>Frodo killed by falling off the precipice into the lava.</UL><P>Of the main characters, it's only Legolas, Gimli, Galadriel & Elrond don't suffer from 'fake death syndrome.'"<P>Then, of course, there's the book part where Pippin is crushed by the troll... that convinces almost everyone who reads it for the first time. So the book has it's own delightful Fake Death moments.

[Kalimac]

That's an impressive list, Luthien. To which I will add one more (book, not movie):<P>ROTK: Faramir, thought to be pre-emptively torched by Denethor. "He lies within, burning, already burning" certainly threw Pippin and Gandalf for a loop, even if it was only a moment or so.

[Gashberz]

Did any of you guys noticed how many times Gandalf beat up Denethor with his staff, and denethor took it and didnt summon anyone to his aid? It makes me think how much power does gandlaf have?

[Lord of Angmar]

Gashberz, that really has nothing to do with the thread at all.

[Legolas]

Frodo being stabbed by the Witch-King on Amon Sul

[Daisy Brambleburr]

Someone else who doesn't suffer from Fake Death syndrome is Boromir. Unfortunatley, he suffers from Real Reath syndrome instead

[Finwe]

*dies laughing*<P><BR>In The Two Towers, during the Battle of Helm's Deep, when Aragorn gets blasted off of the wall when that huge explosive spike-ball thing explodes.<P><BR>In the same scene, when Gimli trips, and falls under water. (Half the theater, when I went to go see it, erupted in half screams. Everyone thought the Dwarf died.)

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

What about in RotK when Pippin is unconscious (he could be dead...) after looking into the palantir. When I read that chapter for the first time, I thought that he really died.

[Lady Snickerdoodle]

*think think*<BR>~in the Dead Marshes, when Frodo gets drawn under by the weird spirit thingy. <BR>~when Sam falls down the cliff in rotk, though I'm not sure that counts...

[Teleri]

In the begining of the Two Towers movie, when Aragorn has his ear on the ground, he looks dead for a moment.<BR>Just have to say, I love the line from the book that Sam says to Gandalf "I thought you were dead, but then I thought I was dead, myself." <BR>There's one that we're in on: Frodo and Sam think that all the rest of the Fellowship is dead.

[Kalimac]

Hmm, that's a bit debatable. There's that bit at the end of FOTR where Frodo says "I don't suppose we'll ever see them again," and Sam says "Yet we may, Mr. Frodo." Though that one's a little weird, since the movie version has Frodo, at least, knowing that hordes of Orcs were about to attack his friends and for all he knew they had died five minutes after he left - though he didn't know about the Orcs in the book. I don't *think* the movie explicitly shows Sam seeing them, maybe he lucked out and missed them. Still, it'd be odd for Frodo not to mention that fact to him at some point.

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I think Teleri's right, because of the part in "The Choices of Master Samwise" where Sam thinks himself "the last of all the company", when he resolves to continue the Quest alone. So it is probable that both Frodo and Sam thought themselves the last surviving members of the Fellowship.

[Kalimac]

Sam is the last member of the company who's still with the Ring, but I don't think he regards the others as dead - just out of reach. When he awakens on the Field of Cormallen, he's astonished to see Gandalf, but he doesn't say "Strider! I thought you were dead!" or anything like that. I mean, it's probably crossed his mind that they *might* be, but I don't think he's taking it for granted - especially since, theoretically, they'd all be safer from attack if they weren't with the Ring.

[Teleri]

In the book Faramir tells Frodo that Boromir is dead, and that leads them to think that the rest of their friends are too. Faramir says that maybe some of them did survive, because of the manner in which Boromir was laid out, but what he saw was only a vision so there is no reason for Frodo or Sam to think that any others of the Fellowship still live.

[Finwe]

The Quest was a rather suicidal one to begin with. The entire Fellowship knew that they would be taking a LOT of risks, perhaps even dying. Frodo knew that, and when he saw all those Orcs heading to the Black Gate, he feared the worst, because in that scenario, the worst nearly did happen.

[Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1]

I didn't think that Sam and Frodo thought of themselves as the last ones alive...just the last ones able to continue the Quest. As somebody said (sorry, awful memory), you were in more danger if you were with the Ring anyway.<P>Can't think of anymore fake death syndrome sufferers...or in some characters' cases more incidents...but hey, I'm sure there must be more somewhere!

[Frodo2968thewhite]

-in TTT EE, when Sam tells Frodo to "Catch it!", and Frodo falls off the cliff.<P>-one of my friends (non-book reader), thought that Frodo died when the eye was on him in Mordor, and he fell.<P>-when Aragorn was fighting Lurtz, and the dagger was thrown @ him, you couldn't quite see that he deflected the blow, so you kinda thought that he died. he had a dead look on his face.<P>These are just a few

[The Saucepan Man]

Seems to me that Jackson was using a device extensively used by Tolkien himself. <P>In LotR, we have:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Pippin vanishing within the clutches of Old Man Willow.<LI>Sam, Merry and Pippin lying cold within the Barrow.<LI>Frodo being hit by the Orc-Chieftain's spear in Moria, and Aragorn thinking him dead.<LI>Gandalf falling with the Balrog.<LI>Merry and Pippin being taken by Orcs, their fates unknown for a number of chapters.<LI>Gimli missing in action at Helm's Deep.<LI>Gandalf listening for Pippin's breath after the latter looked in the Palantir.<LI>Frodo seemingly dying after being stung by Shelob.<LI>Eowyn falling after slaying the Witch-King and being thought dead by Eomer.<LI>Pippin apparently dying after being crushed by a Troll at the Black Gate.</UL><P>In all of those moments, the reader might believe the character dead, if only momentarily. And in some cases, particularly in the case of Gandalf in Moria and Pippin at the Black Gate, the reader is left in suspense for a period of some time.<P>So, while the device was clearly used by Jackson to engender suspense, it was also a device used by Tolkien himself. And so, to some extent, justified in film adaptations of the book.<P>Although I have to admit that Aragorn's cliff diving episode was just plain gratuitous.

[Silmiel of Imladris]

I think for the non-book readers there were two parts that could have portrayed death. When Grima tells Eomer "You are forthwith banished from the kingdom of Rohan under penalty of death." and when Faramir lets Sam and Frodo go "Faramir, you know the laws of our country, the laws of your father. You let them go and your life will be forfit." Now the book readers of course knew that these threats were just threats more the less but it may have had the non-book readers in a bind for a minute or two.

[Elassar 516]

what about Sauron when Isildur cut the ring from his finger?

[Kalimac]

Teleri - touche, I'd forgotten that bit. But it's still pretty ambiguous - all they're relying on really is the cloven horn and Faramir's vision, and as Faramir himself pointed out, *somebody* laid Boromir out, and it was the Orcs. I just think it's telling that Frodo and Sam weren't as shocked to see the others as they were to see Gandalf. <P>Though by the time they met Faramir, they were probably so far gone in some ways that they couldn't really think about it one way or the other. You know how it is when you go traveling in some really remote area and after a while everyone and everything back at home starts to take on a vaguely surreal quality - you know, intellectually, that they must be alive or dead, sleeping or waking, whatever; but if you don't specifically think about it, they tend to just stay in a sort of suspended state in your imagination.

[Rosenberg]

Not to mention that for Frodo, Gandalf's death apparently was still a reality until the end of the movies. For some reason Elijah Woods decided to play the scene as if Frodo was going completely insane at the thought of Gandalf not being dead.

[Kalimac]

I don't know, that seemed realistic enough to me. I've had a few friends who died, and I'd be pretty spooked if any of them came walking through the door with a new, fashionable look and no apparent physical damage sustained.<p>[ 1:06 AM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Kalimac ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I spotted another couple! <P>Our dear Meriadoc is all set for a bludgeoning at the hands of Grishnakh until Treebeard crushes the Orc. This at least is one that's not in the book.<P>Also, Grima is headed for a sticky end by the blade of Theoden until that Ranger steps in.<p>[ 4:12 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Eomer of the Rohirrim ]

[Durelin]

Even Bilbo didn't avoid near death syndrome, completely missing the entire Battle of the Five Armies. Hmmmmm...though I guess that's cheating.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Half the theater, when I went to go see it, erupted in half screams.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you have a lively audience. I don't think more than five people have ever even clapped in my history of LOTR movie-going. Except, of course, on opening day, when all but us fan boys and girls are at school or work.

[The Dark Elf]

In the beginning of the FOTR i thought Elrond was going to die when they had the big war outside Mordor and the Orcs charge them. Elrond knocked and orc down and stabbed his spear down on him. Seemingly i was the only one who saw the orc behind him with a sword raised.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Actually Elrond did not utilise a spear. The scene you describe was Gil-Galad's cameo appearance.<P>Another near death scene is when Aragorn has a blade to his throat and is all set to die, when all of a sudden Arwen is revealed as his 'captor'. The scene has been described as 'pointless' and 'ridiculous', with good cause.

[doug*platypus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Pippin killed by horse stomping on him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That was the most frightening part of the TTT movie for me. I thought, <B>NOO!!!! Pippin has been crushed by a horse!</B> and for the next ten minutes I couldn't get over my grief that they cut his part down so dramatically. Very convincing, PJ. <P>There's also the "Arwen is dying for some reason" sub-plot. As if everyone didn't know the whole time that she would hook up with Aragorn at the end. PJ and Co must <B>really</B> underestimate their audience. Sometimes I think that the movies were made with three year olds or post-lobotomy patients in mind. Which is nice of the film-makers really, because those are two segments of the movie-going population that are often neglected.