Sauron and the palantir

[Imbefana]

Around T.A. 1980, the Nazgul took Minas Ithil, which housed a palantir, which was subsequently taken by Sauron. We know that Sauron used the seeing-stone until his demise, and communicated directly with those who looked into other seeing-stones, such as Denethor, Saruman and Pippin.

My question is that since Sauron was extremely powerful, was only he able to communicate or speak with others through the palantiri?

For example, before the Ithil-stone was taken, were the Numenoreans who used the stones able to have a long distance conversation with one another?

Now these stones had this virtue that those who looked therein might perceive in them things far off, whether in place or time. For the most part they revealed only things near to another kindred Stone, for the Stones each called to each; but those who possessed great strength of will and of mind might learn to direct their gaze whither they would.

This quote from the Silmarillion leads me to think not, as only the strong could will the Stones to go to a certain place and time. What do you guys think?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Yes, actually the answer to your question can be found in UT.

'Alone the palantiri could only "see": they did not transmit sound.... But when another mind occupied a Stone in accord, thought could be "transferred" (recieved as "speech") and visions of the things in the mind of the surveyor of one Stone could be seen by the other surveyor....

'Two persons, each using a Stone "in accord" with the other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would exchange "thought" -- not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but "silent speech", the thoughts they wished to transmit (already formalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would be recieved by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into "speech", and only reportable as such.'

[Numenorean]

Imbey, Another quote regarding the Palantiri from Unfinished Tales which might be useful is this:


UT P.403-

"Until the passing of the Kings they were not sinister secrets. Their use involved no peril, and no king or other person authorized to survey them would have hesitated to reveal the source of his knowledge of the deeds or opinions of distant rulers, if obtained through the stones"

[Imbefana]

Thank you Gwairhir, for your response. I suppose this is just another reason why I need to go buy and read UT and the LT, since it seems there is a lot of information I'm missing with just LotR and the Sil. Thanks again.

Nu! Thank you, for the UT quote. I'm really sorry about the whole PM thing, it keeps saying I've 'reached my quota' and am unable to recieve more. I deleted all of my messages, so hopefully now it will work.

My understanding of the palantiri is that anyone could use them to communicate with someone at the other end of the line, so to speak; to see far and wide where one desired is what required a strong will. The Numenoreans were noted for their strong will and keen intellect, at least in the better days of the 2nd Age, so several of them may have been able to use a stone in solitary pursuit of information.

I learned something interesting while refreshing my memory among my source references--the Noldor made a master stone that was kept in the Tower of Avallone. This would mean that the Valar had their own means of keeping up with current events in ME. Maybe that's how they were able to see Gandalf after his Balrog battle, fix him and send him back so Gwaihir could pick him up and take him to Lothlorien!

Hmmm . . . if the Valar could see what occurred in ME . . . ah, but that's another thread for another day!

Also, none of this came from UTs. I, too, will be doing a more thorough reading of that once I'm done with The Letters of . . . .

[Imbefana]

Thanks for your response, Dininzilielen. I just read something on that as well. I believe it was in the Silmarillion, I can't quite remember though. Arnor gave one of its three palantiri to the Elves, who placed it in the tallest tower of the Tower Hills, Elostirion. Since it was near the coast, Elendil was said to go there and look across the Sea to the tower you mentioned, the Tower of Avallone in Valinor, and to the Sea where Numenor once stood.

Hmmm . . . if the Valar could see what occurred in ME . . . ah, but that's another thread for another day!

That would be an interesting topic for sure, but would they really need a palantir to do so? I suppose I could start another topic and see what others think.

[Finwe]

The Valar probably had other ways of checking up on Middle-earth. I don't think that they used the master palantir. Perhaps that was used by the Elven refugees from Middle-earth to periodically look back upon their home to see how things were going. I'm sure that they still would have cared about their loved ones who had remained, and would have wanted to periodically check back on what they were doing and how they were.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

"And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwe"

The Valar don't need cell-phones to keep track of those folks; They have Unmanned Reconnaissance Vehicle!

Gee, some questions though: Did Feanor made those stones? Or were they made by Celebrimbor? Oh, and why didn't Gandalf look into the stone, but handed it instead to Aragorn? Isn't Gandalf more powerful than Aragorn? I know that the Palantir belonged to the Heirs of Elendil... but then, considering that Aragorn showed himself to Sauron anyway, the risk of revealing their plans to Sauron is already there. Besides, Sauron is likely to have already known of the return of Gandalf, so there wasn't much of the risk, right?

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Gandalf says himself why he did not use the Palantír:

I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so. But even if I found the power to withdraw myself, it would have been disastrous for him to see me, yet - until the hour comes when secrecy will avail no longer.

He passes the stone to Aragorn because, as Elendil's heir, he is its rightful owner. Indeed Aragorn says as much:

'Dangerous indeed, but not to all,' said Aragorn. 'There is one who may claim it by right. For this is assuredly the palantír of Orthanc from the treasury of Elendil, set here by the Kings of Gondor. Now my hour draws near. I will take it.'
Gandalf looked at Aragorn, and then, to the surprise of the others, he lifted the covered Stone, and bowed as he presented it.
'Receive it, lord!' he said: 'in earnest of other things that shall be given back...'

I see no reason to argue with Gandalf: Sauron cannot know that he has come back, which is incredibly unlikely despite Gandalf's Maiarin status. It is a special dispensation of the Powers or Eru himself that allows him to return to Middle-earth and continue with his mission, and he returns absolutely in secret. If Sauron knew of the events in Moria, and I presume that he did, he would have discounted Gandalf from his calculations unless something happened that forcibly pointed out to him that his adversary was back and active.

Ownership of an object is an important theme in myth, the rightful owner often having more power over an object than any other. Here Aragorn has the right to use the Palantír, whereas Sauron as thief and usurper does not. This is enough to tip the balance in the favour of the owner, although it is still a close-run battle. Gandalf again fears his ability to defeat Sauron, as he did in Valinor when first the Istari were gathered, but this could be an example of humility. Often those who feel inadequate to a challenge are those who are best suited to succeed in Tolkien's world. Certainly if Gandalf even thought that he still had a chance of remaining hidden and therefore leaving a factor out of his enemy's calculations, he was right to be cautious. As it turned out, Aragorn's use of the Stone led almost directly to the attack on Minas Tirith, which emptied Minas Morgul of most of its garrison just as Frodo, Sam and Gollum were trying to pass it. Coincidence upon coincidence.

The index to the Silmarillion describes the palantíri as the work of Fëanor, and the corresponding passage reads: "...and other crystals he made also, wherein things far away could be seen small but clear, as with the eyes of the eagles of Manwë."

I hope that's cleared a few things up.

[Angry Hill Troll]

In the various writings about the Palantiri in the UT, in some instances there is a mention of an eighth Master Stone In Tol Eressëa, but in others there isn't. It's not quite clear what JRRT's final decision was on this issue.

It may be that Sauron wasn't able to completely control the Stone to gather military intelligence precisely because he wasn't a legitimate user. Aragorn was (the attack of the Corsairs) and so was Denethor--also a legitimate user as the heir of the Steward to the last King of Gondor. In UT, Tolkien discusses in some detail the differences between Saruman and Denethor. Both got into trouble by using the Palantiri, but Saruman (an illegitimate user who uses the Palantir for selfish motives) ends up (more or less) doing Sauron's bidding. Denethor, whose motive is to fulfill his duty to Gondor, continues to oppose Sauron, athough he is tricked into believing the situation is hopeless--a much less catastrophic fall than Saruman's.

Of course if it had been desirable for Gandalf to look into the Palantir, all he would have had to do to be a legitimate user and so gain an advantage over Sauron was to ask Aragorn's permission.