Disfigured moon??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Leyrana Silumiel · 02-24-2004, 07:59 PM

(Yes, I'm in love with the three question marks ^_^)

I was reading the chapter called "The Tower of Cirith Ungol" a little while ago, when I stumbled across a passage with a phrase that confused me (which is bolded below):

Quote:

Two liveries Sam noticed, one marked by the Red Eye, the other by a Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death; but he did not stop to look more closely. ...

Okay, I gather that the liveries marked with the Red Eye is Sauron's troops, but who are the ones with the disfigured Moon on their liveries? I couldn't find it anywhere (unless I overlooked it like I did with the eagle...). Anyone have any clues or ideas?

Finwe · 02-24-2004, 08:02 PM

The Orcs that bore the livery of the disfigured Moon were from Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery. The disfigured Moon or the face of death is a common theme in literature and it symbolizes sorcery, death, or anything generally squicky in an unholy way.

Leyrana Silumiel · 02-24-2004, 08:06 PM

Finwe! *hug* Thank you! *smacks my forehead* I can't believe I completely forgot about that. Minas Morgul = Minas Ithil = The Tower of the Moon. *sigh* I'll get it together eventually.

Kransha · 02-24-2004, 08:12 PM

In addition to Finwe's answer, I believe the disfigured moon may also have been the emblem of the Witch-King himself, though his armor and shield are not blazoned, to my knowledge at least. Obviously, the moon disfigured represents the disfiguring of the moon of Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Moon...but that was aforementioned.

Actually, just for extra, here is a site with some renderings of Middle-Earth's many emblems and flags for the viewing.
Here
Actually, I just realized, that's not entirely accurate, but it's still interesting to a certain extent. Hope that answers your question fully.

Finwe · 02-24-2004, 08:17 PM

Just to be picky... the emblem that they have for Morgoth is wrong, since it says in the Silmarillion that during his fight with Fingolfin, Morgoth's shield, armor, and raiment were all black. This was also why Maeglin was looked at with some suspicion in Gondolin, since his device was completely sable as well.

Kransha · 02-24-2004, 08:21 PM

Yes I realized that as well...Morgoth is "sable unblazoned." A particularly good line.

Also, the Easterling banner bears a mumak on that site, while the Haradrim banner bears a red serpent. For some reason, that just don't seem right.

But, the Elven banners and emblems of Gondor's fiefs are all accurate...I think...Please tell me I'm right...I feel my knowledge slipping away.

Finwe · 02-24-2004, 09:19 PM

The Haradrim were supposed to have a serpent on their banner. During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Theoden felled "the black serpent" on a field of red, the banner of the Haradrim who fought under Sauron.

As for the Easterlings, I don't recall if their banner or main battle standards were ever described in any detail.

Eorl of Rohan · 02-24-2004, 11:36 PM

That's news to me, Finwe!

I also noticed the line 'I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, glad day, and golden sunset!", but I thought the sable serpent in here referred to the Witch King. Theoden might have seen the King fall and think he killed him himself ^^

Dininziliel · 02-24-2004, 11:47 PM

Who could pass over "Disfigured moon???" as a topic? Not I! And I learned somethings new--the banners--and, a great new word--"squicky."

*Does dance of the dead by undisfigured moonlight*

burrahobbit · 02-25-2004, 03:59 AM

The disfigured moon is just the regular moon, I would think. At least, more or less. It was burned.

02-25-2004, 11:23 PM

The use of the moon, is the soldiers of minas morgul token because Minas Ithil is the tower of the moon... the light of the city was tainted and warped, thus the corrupted moon. It's a reminder to the enemies of mordor that it was once fair; very simple and effective. As for it being the witch king's emblem... i doubt it. I seem to have read elsewhere he had another token? I wonder what the armies of Dol Guldur had as their token...

Novlamothien · 02-26-2004, 09:29 AM

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the token of Dol Gildur was a white swanship on a blue background.

Namarie

Finwe · 02-26-2004, 11:31 AM

I believe you are mistaken. We don't know the token of Dol Guldur. The banner that you were referring to, the swanship on blue, was the banner of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth.

Leyrana Silumiel · 02-26-2004, 04:34 PM

*reads through the posts* Did I start something? Hehe.

I think, returning back to the original question, that Finwe and Kransha were right; I think it's most logical to say that the disfigured moon represents Minas Ithil and the Witch-King's soldiers. It would make sense, anyway. ^_^

02-26-2004, 09:21 PM

there is no doubt to that... it's when and how they adopted it that I am interested in

how'd you get the swanship on blue for Sauron's northen stronghold...

DId you get Dol Amroth and Dol Guldur mixed up?

hehe

02-24-2004, 08:02 PM	#2
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The Orcs that bore the livery of the disfigured Moon were from Minas Morgul, the Tower of Sorcery. The disfigured Moon or the face of death is a common theme in literature and it symbolizes sorcery, death, or anything generally squicky in an unholy way. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-24-2004, 08:12 PM	#4
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	In addition to Finwe's answer, I believe the disfigured moon may also have been the emblem of the Witch-King himself, though his armor and shield are not blazoned, to my knowledge at least. Obviously, the moon disfigured represents the disfiguring of the moon of Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Moon...but that was aforementioned. Actually, just for extra, here is a site with some renderings of Middle-Earth's many emblems and flags for the viewing. Here Actually, I just realized, that's not entirely accurate, but it's still interesting to a certain extent. Hope that answers your question fully. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-24-2004, 08:17 PM	#5
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Just to be picky... the emblem that they have for Morgoth is wrong, since it says in the Silmarillion that during his fight with Fingolfin, Morgoth's shield, armor, and raiment were all black. This was also why Maeglin was looked at with some suspicion in Gondolin, since his device was completely sable as well. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-24-2004, 08:21 PM	#6
Kransha Ubiquitous Urulóki Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: The port of Mars, where Famine, Sword, and Fire, leash'd in like hounds, crouch for employment Posts: 747	Yes I realized that as well...Morgoth is "sable unblazoned." A particularly good line. Also, the Easterling banner bears a mumak on that site, while the Haradrim banner bears a red serpent. For some reason, that just don't seem right. But, the Elven banners and emblems of Gondor's fiefs are all accurate...I think...Please tell me I'm right...I feel my knowledge slipping away. __________________ "What mortal feels not awe/Nor trembles at our name, Hearing our fate-appointed power sublime/Fixed by the eternal law. For old our office, and our fame," -Aeschylus, Song of the Furies

02-24-2004, 09:19 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The Haradrim were supposed to have a serpent on their banner. During the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Theoden felled "the black serpent" on a field of red, the banner of the Haradrim who fought under Sauron. As for the Easterlings, I don't recall if their banner or main battle standards were ever described in any detail. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-24-2004, 08:06 PM	#3
Leyrana Silumiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alabama, USA Posts: 58	Finwe! hug Thank you! smacks my forehead I can't believe I completely forgot about that. Minas Morgul = Minas Ithil = The Tower of the Moon. sigh I'll get it together eventually.

02-24-2004, 11:36 PM	#8
Eorl of Rohan Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seoul, South Korea Posts: 602	That's news to me, Finwe! I also noticed the line 'I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, glad day, and golden sunset!", but I thought the sable serpent in here referred to the Witch King. Theoden might have seen the King fall and think he killed him himself ^^ __________________ There is no signature here.

02-24-2004, 11:47 PM	#9
Dininziliel Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: 3rd star from the right over Kansas Posts: 108	Who could pass over "Disfigured moon???" as a topic? Not I! And I learned somethings new--the banners--and, a great new word--"squicky." Does dance of the dead by undisfigured moonlight __________________ "It is a journey without distance to a goal that has never changed."

02-25-2004, 03:59 AM	#10
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	The disfigured moon is just the regular moon, I would think. At least, more or less. It was burned. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

02-25-2004, 11:23 PM	#11
Ulmo's Right Hand Guest Posts: n/a	The use of the moon, is the soldiers of minas morgul token because Minas Ithil is the tower of the moon... the light of the city was tainted and warped, thus the corrupted moon. It's a reminder to the enemies of mordor that it was once fair; very simple and effective. As for it being the witch king's emblem... i doubt it. I seem to have read elsewhere he had another token? I wonder what the armies of Dol Guldur had as their token...

02-26-2004, 09:29 AM	#12
Novlamothien Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: A white, wintry wonderland-in the South!! Posts: 75	I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the token of Dol Gildur was a white swanship on a blue background. Namarie __________________ "He said if I had the cheek to make verses about Earendil in the house of Elrond that was my affair." ~Bilbo~

02-26-2004, 11:31 AM	#13
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I believe you are mistaken. We don't know the token of Dol Guldur. The banner that you were referring to, the swanship on blue, was the banner of Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

02-26-2004, 04:34 PM	#14
Leyrana Silumiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Alabama, USA Posts: 58	reads through the posts Did I start something? Hehe. I think, returning back to the original question, that Finwe and Kransha were right; I think it's most logical to say that the disfigured moon represents Minas Ithil and the Witch-King's soldiers. It would make sense, anyway. ^_^

02-26-2004, 09:21 PM	#15
Ulmo's Right Hand Guest Posts: n/a	there is no doubt to that... it's when and how they adopted it that I am interested in how'd you get the swanship on blue for Sauron's northen stronghold... DId you get Dol Amroth and Dol Guldur mixed up? hehe

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