**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Aiwendil]

I think that after finishing the Fall of Gondolin it would be good to step back and discuss some general project issues and procedural things before immediately rushing into a new project.

I will open a new thread where we can discuss these things, as well as what our next project/projects should be.

[Findegil]

Reading this Post (and the following) it might seem that I had again to much time at my disposal. Properly that is the case, since I am in holyday at home in the moment. But on the other hand I did work for these posts for some time. The reason for this post was Meadhros Draft 4 for FoD, which he had send to me and which he hopped could be our working basis for the coming FoD discussions. But sad as it is I could not agree on this. Not only that some details of his text were not to my liking, I found also some points of the storyline he created to be not fitting my view of the story. While I was reading Maedhros draft I also marked some mistakes in the storyline of my own draft. Thus I thought that it would be best to discuss the storyline first. And this is the thread proposed to do it.
To do so we need to have a look at the sources, and I will in this post try to give an complete overview about all the storylines in the different sources we have for the Fall of Doriath. In some place I will only give short summary of the text to illuminate the Storyline. In other place were the source itself is more like a storyline or can only add to some particular points of interest I will give the source in full.

Since we agreed already on the beginning of our Tale to be the continuation of The Wanderings of Húrin I will start my research at the point were Húrin reached Nargothrond. In many cases (and also in our Tale) Húrin will have gathered by that time a band of “Outlaws” thus I will start with any storyline with a short description of that band.

The First account of the Fall of Doriath is given in The History of Middle-Earth; volume 2: The Book of Lost Tales 2; chapter II: Túrin Turambar and the Foaloke (TT) and chapter IV: The Tale of the Nauglafring (TN) I will give in this case an extracted Story line:
The Band of Húrin were here outlawed Elves “of the Hills”.
Húrin dealt Mîm (who was in that Tale unconnected to the earlier story of Túrin) to death because of the cruses Mîm did utter above the gold when Húrins Band bear it out of the hall.
Húrin brought his Band to carry the gold to Thingols halls.
There he cast the Gold at Thingols feet and left with an unknown fate. Later his soul is reported to hunt together with Morwens the forest of Brethil.
The Outlaws did bargain with Thingol and tried to cheat but were stopped by Elves that were already under the spell of the Dragon Gold.
The resulting fight in the hall was stopped by Thingols troops how killed the outlaws.
Ufedhin urged the King to sent part of the Gold to Nogord.
Thingol let bear half the gold to Nogord. Ufedhin is imprisoned as a security to get the gold back.
The Nauglath of Nogrod smith beautiful things for Thingol and bring them back.
Thingol imprisoned the dwarves to fashion the rest of the gold. The Dwarves make a second attempt at the gold. When they see that Thingol is happy with what they made they ask the favour to make the Nauglamir with the Silmaril.
When the Dwarves had fashioned the Necklace they do by the machinations of Ufedhin demand a unplayable price for all their labour.
The dwarves are humiliated, scanty paid and driven away with Ufedhin.
The Nauglath under their King Naugladur form an alliance with the Dwarves of Belegost under their King Bodruith and with the Orks. They hear of the death of Mîm and claim the gold to belong to the Dwarves.
The Dwarves pass the girdle by treachery of some Elves who are under the spell of the Gold.
Thingol is slain by the Nauglath during a hunt in which Mablung (also slain) and Huan take part. (Huan was in that version killed by Carcharoth but did reappear here without any explanation.)
Ufedhin with an Army of the Dwarves of Belegost and Orcs overruns Menegroth but is daunted by Melians eyes.
Naugladur comes to Menegroth bearing the Nauglamir and Thingols head on a pole. He let gather all the riches and tried to imprison Melian. But she leaves Menegroth wandering around without propose.
Naugladur left the rest of folk of Menegroth to the Orks and left with Ufedhin and all the Dwarves.
Huan brings the message to Beren and Lúthien (in Hithlum).
Beren gathers an Army of Green-Elves and pursuit the Dwarves.
Ufedhin tries to kill Naugladur and steal the Nauglamir, but is discovered by Bodruith whom he kills. Before he flees. A feud awakes between the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost and the Dwarves of Belegost are killed or driven away.
Ufedhin is captured by the Green-Elves and brought to Beren. He reveals the route that Naugladur will take to Nogrod.
Beren and his Green-Elves ambushes the Dwarves at the Ford Arosiach. Many Dwarves are killed by the Elven-archers, some fled away toward the mountains (nothing is told of their fate, if they are not identical with the later searchers who are killed by a flood.)
Beren assails Naugladur and his bodyguard. After he killed one of the guards the others fled. Beren fights with Naugladur. In the End he kills Naugladur with mere luck. Beren takes the Nauglamir but the treasure is cast in the River.
Lúthien wears the Nauglamir. When Melian appears, Ufedhin flies madden into the woods. After Melain is healed by Lúthien she tells the full tale and warns Beren and Luthien about the Nauglamir, so that Luthien does no longer wear it. Melain leaves toward Valinor.
After the early fading of Luthien her son Dior goes with his family and the Nauglamir to Doriath and re-established the Realm. When the Sons of Feanor hear of the Dior wearing the Nauglamir they send Curufin to Doriath and claim the Silmaril. The claim is rejected by Dior and Curufin send away with bitter words.
The Brothers assail Doriath. Dior and his Son Auredhir are killed. Elwing fled with the Nauglamir. A host of Diors Elves came lat into the battle and fell at the rear of Feanorians. In the text Maglor is slain by swords and Amras dies by wounds in the wild. Celegrom and Caranthir are shot with arrows. But the Feanorians won the day.
After some wandering in the woods Elwing gathers the remnant of the Elves and wanders to Havens of Sirion.

The next telling of the tale was The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter II: The Earliest ‘Silmarillion’ or Sketch of the Mythology (S). I will give it in full, since it is not much more than an outline:

Hurin and outlaws come to Nargothrond, whom none dare plunder for dread of the spirit of Glorung' or even of his memory. They slay Mim the Dwarf who had taken possession and enchanted all the gold. Hurin casts the gold at Thingol's feet with reproaches. Thingol will not have it, and bears with Hurin, until goaded too far he bids him begone. Hurin wanders away and seeks Morwen, and many for ages after related that they met them together in the woods lamenting their children.
The enchanted gold lays its spell on Thingol. He summons the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to come and fashion it into beautiful things, and to make a necklace of great wonder whereon the Silmaril shall hang. The Dwarves plot treachery, and Thingol bitter with the curse of the gold denies them their reward. After their smithying they are driven away without payment. The Dwarves come back; aided by treachery of some Gnomes who also were bitten by the lust of the gold, they surprise Thingol on a hunt, slay him, and surprise the Thousand Caves and plunder them. Melian they cannot touch. She goes away to seek Beren and Luthien.
The Dwarves are ambushed at a ford by Beren and the brown and green Elves of the wood, and their king slain, from whose neck Beren takes the 'Nauglafring'(2) or necklace of the Dwarves, with its Silmaril. It is said that Luthien wearing that jewel is the most beautiful thing that eyes have ever seen outside Valinor. But Melian warned Beren of the curse of the gold and of the Silmaril. The rest of the gold is drowned in the river.
But the 'Nauglafring'(3) remains hoarded secretly in Beren's keeping. When Mandos let Beren return with Luthien, it was only at the price that Luthien should become as shortlived as Beren the mortal. Luthien now fades, even as the Elves in later days faded as Men grew strong and took the goodness of earth (for the Elves needed the light of the Trees). At last she vanished, and Beren was lost, looking in vain for her, and his son Dior ruled after him. Dior re-established Doriath and grew proud, and wore the 'Nauglafring', and the fame of the Silmaril went abroad. After vain bargaining the sons of Feanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him, and took the 'Nauglafring'. They quarrelled over it, owing to the curse of the gold, until only Maglor was left. But Elwing daughter of Dior was saved and carried away to the mouth of the river Sirion.(4)

Notes:
1. The name Glorung is not here emended, as in $13, to Glomund, but ad is written over the g, sc. Glorund (the earliest form of the name of the Dragon).
2. At the first occurrence only of Nauglafring, th is pencilled above, i.e. Nauglathring or Nauglathfring.
3. Above Nauglafring here my father wrote Dweorgmene [Old English, 'Dwarf-necklace']; this was struck out, and Glingna Nauglir substituted.
4 The conclusion of this section was changed very soon after it was written, since in §17 already as first written the Nauglafring is with Elwing at the mouth of Sirion:

After vain bargaining the sons of Feanor made war on him (the second slaying of Elf by Elf) and destroyed him. But Elwing daughter of Dior, Beren's son, escaped, and was carried away by faithful servants to the mouth of the river Sirion. With her went the Nauglafring.

The next step in the development is the last finished account of the event: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30) Since even that text is very short I will again give the chapter in full:

Hurin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory. But one Mim the Dwarf they found there. This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales(1) of the ancient world; and it is said that Dwarves first spread west from Erydluin,(2) the Blue Mountains, into Beleriand after the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Now Mim had found the halls and treasure of Nargothrond unguarded; and he took possession of them, and sat there in joy fingering the gold and gems, and letting them run ever through his hands; and he bound them to himself with many spells. But the folk of Mim were few, and the outlaws filled with the lust of the treasure slew them, though Hurin would have stayed them, and at his death Mim cursed the gold.
And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves. Then Hurin bade cast it all at the feet of Thingol, and he reproached the Elfking with wild and bitter words. 'Receive thou,' said he, 'thy fee for thy fair keeping of my wife and kin.'
Yet Thingol would not take the hoard, and long he bore with Hurin; but Hurin scorned him, and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth; and some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men.
Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon gold began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, that they might fashion the gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a marvellous necklace of great beauty they should make, whereon to hang the Silmaril.
But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mim?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril.
And Thingol, falling deeper into the thraldom of the spell, for his part scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls. There many Elves and Dwarves were slain, and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named Cum-nan-Arasaith, the Mound of Avarice. But the remainder of the Dwarves were driven forth without reward or fee.
Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod and in Belegost they returned at length, and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen they passed into Doriath secretly. There they surprised Thingol upon a hunt with but small company of arms; and Thingol was slain, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered; and so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.
Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Luthien. Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the River Ascar,(3) where aforetime were the hunting grounds of Damrod and Diriel, sons of Feanor. To the south of those lands between the river and the mountains lay the land of Assariad, and there (4) lived and wandered still in peace and bliss Beren and Luthien, in that time of respite which Luthien had won, ere both should die; and their folk were the Green Elves of the South, who were not of the Elves of Cor,(5) nor of Doriath, though many had fought at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. But Beren went no more to war, and his land was filled with loveliness and a wealth of flowers; and while Beren was and Luthien remained Men called it oft Cuilwarthien,(6) the Land of the Dead that Live.
To the north of that region is a ford across the river Ascar, near to its joining with Duilwen (7) that falls in torrents from the mountains; and that ford is named Sarn-athra,(8) the Ford of Stones. This ford the Dwarves must past ere they reached their homes(9) and there Beren fought his last fight, warned of their approach by Melian. In that battle the Green Elves took the Dwarves unawares as they were in the midst of their passage, laden with their plunder; and the Dwarvish chiefs were slain, and well nigh all their host. But Beren took the Nauglafring,(10) the Necklace of the Dwarves, whereon was hung the Silmaril; and it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel on her white breast was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been seen outside the realms of Valinor, and that for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Gods, and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon the treasure and upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned indeed in the river Ascar, and named it anew Rathlorion,(11) Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained.
And in time the brief hour of the loveliness of the land of Rathlorion departed. For Luthien faded as Mandos had spoken, even as the Elves of later days faded, when Men waxed strong and usurped the goodness of the earth; and she vanished from the world; and Beren died, and none know where their meeting shall be again.(12)
Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Luthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Feanor. For Dior went back to Doriath and for a time a part of its ancient glory was raised anew, though Melian no longer dwelt in that place, and she departed to the land of the Gods beyond the western sea, to muse on her sorrows in the gardens whence she came.
But Dior wore the Silmaril upon his breast and the fame of that jewel went far and wide; and the deathless oath was waked once more from sleep. The sons of Feanor, when he would not yield the jewel unto them, came(13) upon him with all their host; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf, and the most grievous. There fell Celegorm and Curufin and dark Cranthir, but Dior was slain(14) and Doriath was destroyed and never rose again.
Yet the sons of Feanor gained not the Silmaril; for faithful servants fled before them and took with them Elwing the daughter of Dior, and she escaped, and they bore with them the Nauglafring, and came in time to the mouth of the river Sirion by the sea.

Notes:
1. This is the first coming of the Dwarves into these tales > Now for the first time did the Dwarves take part in these tales
2. Eryd-luin > Ered-luin (late change).
3. Ascar > Flend > Gelion at the first two occurrences, but left un changed at the third.
4. This sentence emended to read: To the south of those lands between the river Flend [> Gelion ] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, Flend [> Gelion], Ascar, Thalos, Loeglin [> Legolin ], Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant. There lived, &c. (The rivers were first written Flend, Ascar, Thalos, Loeglin, Brilthor, Adurant. Duilwen was then added between Thalos and Loeglin; then Legolin replaced Loeglin and Duilwen was moved to stand between Brilthor and Adurant.)
5. Cor > Kor, as previously.
6. Men called it oft Cuilwarthien > Elves called it oft Gwenh-i-cuina (see $10 note 15).
7. Duilwen > Ascar (see p. 285, entry Dwarf-road).
8. Sarn-athra > Sarn-athrad.
9. ere they reached their homes > ere they reached the mountain passes that led unto their homes
10. Nauglafring > Nauglamir at both occurrences (late changes).
11. Rathlorion > Rathloriel at both occurrences (late changes).
12. Added here:
Yet it hath been sung that Luthien alone of Elves hath been numbered among our race, and goeth whither we go to a fate beyond the world.
A large pencilled X is made in the margin against the sentence in the typescript beginning For Luthien faded...; in my father's manuscripts this always implies that there is some misstatement in the text that requires revision.
13. The words The sons of Feanor, when were struck out, and the sentence enlarged thus:
For while Luthien wore that peerless gem no Elf would dare assail her, and not even Maidros dared ponder such a thought. But now hearing of the renewal of Doriath and Dior's pride, the seven gathered again from wandering; and they sent unto Dior to claim their own. But he would not yield the jewel unto them; and they came, &c.
14. Added here: and his young sons Eldun and Elrun (late change).

That is all we have in the form of a closed narrative. It might be of some interest, that this text was included in the typescripts of the LQ2 series in 1958, but Tolkien did not made any change to the text in that typescript.
It remain only the Annals with their scanty words and some hints given later in separate Notes.
Lets start with the earliest Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter VII: The Earliest Annals of Beleriand (AB1)

200 … Here was born also Elwing the White, fairest of women save Luthien, unto Dior in Ossiriand.
Hurin gathers men unto him. They find the treasure of Nargothrond and slay Mim the Dwarf who had taken it to himself. The treasure is cursed. The treasure is brought to Thingol.
But Hurin departs from Doriath with bitter words, but of his fate and of Morwen's after no certain tidings are known.

201 Thingol employs the Dwarves to smithy his gold and silver and the treasure of Narog, and they make the renowned Nauglafring,(60) the Dwarfnecklace, whereon is hung the Silmaril. Enmity awakes (61) between the Elves and Dwarves, and the Dwarves are driven away.

202 Here the Dwarves invaded Doriath aided by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the treasure. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves sacked. But Melian the divine could not be taken and departed to Ossiriand.
Beren(62) summoned by Melian overthrew the Dwarves at Sarn-Athra (63) and cast the gold into the River Asgar, which afterwards was called Rathlorion (64) the Golden-bed; but the Nauglafring and the Silmaril he took. Luthien wore the necklace and the Silmaril on her breast. Here Beren and Luthien depart out of men's knowledge and their deathday is not known; save that at night a messenger brought the necklace unto Dior in Doriath, and the Elves said: 'Luthien and Beren are dead as Mandos doomed.'
Dior son of Luthien and Beren, Thingol's heir, returned unto Doriath and for a while reestablished it, but Melian went back to Valinor and he had no longer her protection.

203 The necklace came to Dior; he wore it on his breast.

205 The sons of Feanor hear tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and gather from wandering and hold council. They summon Dior to give up the jewel.

206 Here Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath. but he was slain. Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir fell in battle. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth, were slain by the evil men of Maidros' host, and Maidros bewailed the foul deed. The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves and taken to Sirion's mouth, and with them they took the jewel and the necklace.

Notes:
60 Nauglafring > Nauglamir (later change); again in annal 202.
61 Enmity awakes is an early change from War ensues.
62 Later addition: and the Green-elves (cf. note 34).
63 Sarn-Athra > Sarn-Athrad (later change). The same change is made in Q[30] ($14, note 8).
64 Rathlorion > Rathloriel (later change). The same change is made in Q[30] ($14, note 11).

Farther developments took place in the next Annals The History of Middle-Earth; volume 5: The Lost Road; Part 2: Valinor and Middle-Earth before The Lord of the Rings; chapter III: The Later Annals of Beleriand (AB2)

500 … In this year was born also Elwing the White, fairest of all women save Luthien, unto Dior son of Beren in Ossiriand.
Hurin gathered men unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, and slew the dwarf Mim, who had taken the treasure unto himself. But Mim cursed the treasure. Hurin brought the gold to Thingol in Doriath, but he departed thence again with bitter words, and of his fate and the fate of Morwen thereafter no sure tidings were ever heard.

501 Thingol employed Dwarvish craftsmen to fashion his gold and silver and the treasure of Nargothrond; and they made the renowned Nauglamir, the Dwarf-necklace, whereon was hung the Silmaril. Enmity awoke between Dwarves and Elves, and the Dwarves were driven away unrewarded.

502 Here the Dwarves (41) came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand.
Beren and the Green-elves overthrew the Dwarves at Sarn-Athrad as they returned eastward, and the gold was cast into the river Ascar, which was after called Rathloriel, the Bed of Gold.
But Beren took the Nauglamir and the Silmaril. Luthien wore the Silmaril upon her breast. Dior their son ruled over the remnants of the Elves of Doriath.

503 Here Beren and Luthien departed out of the knowledge of Elves and Men, and their deathday is not known; but at night a messenger brought the necklace to Dior in Doriath, and the Elves said: 'Luthien and Beren are dead as Mandos doomed.'

504 Dior son of Beren, Thingol's heir, was now king in Doriath, and he re-established it for a while. But Melian went back to Valinor and Doriath had no longer her protection. Dior wore the Nauglamir and the Silmaril upon his breast.

505 The sons of Feanor heard tidings of the Silmaril in the East, and they gathered from wandering, and held council together. Maidros sent unto Dior and summoned him to give up the jewel.

506 Here Dior Thingol's heir fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, but he was slain. This was the second kinslaying, and the fruit of the oath. Celegorm fell in that battle, and Curufin, and Cranthir. The young sons of Dior, Elboron and Elbereth,(42) were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros' following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.
The maiden Elwing was saved by faithful Elves, and they fled with her to the mouths of Sirion, and they took with them the jewel and the necklace, and Maidros found it not.

Notes:
41. Dwarves > Dwarfs (the only occurrence of the change in the text). See commentary on QS $122.
42. Elboron and Elbereth > Elrun and Eldun (a hasty pencilled change). See IV. 325 - 6 and the Etymologies, stem BARATH.

Last but not least we have the latest Annals ever made The History of Middle-Earth; volume 11: The War of the Jewels; part 3: The Wanderings of Húrin and other writings not forming part of The Quenta Silmarillion; chapter V. The Tale of the Years (I will give here all parts of the chapter that are concerned with the Fall of Doriath, since the content is in my view of essential importance, equally if it is JRR Tolkiens own script or Christopher Tolkiens comments. (TY)

The Tale of Years was an evolving work that accompanied successive stages in the development of the Annals. I have given it no place hitherto in The History of Middle-earth (but see X.49), because its value to the narrative of the Elder Days is very small until towards the end of the later (post-Lord of the Rings) version, when it becomes a document of importance; but here some very brief account of it must be given.
The earliest form is a manuscript with this title that sets out in very concise form the major events of the Elder Days. The dates throughout are in all but perfect accord with those given in the pre-Lord of the Rings texts 'The Later Annals of Valinor' and 'The Later Annals of Beleriand' (AV 2 and AB 2). Since this Tale of Years was obviously written as an accompaniment to and at the same time as those versions of the Annals, adding nothing to them, I did not include it in Volume V.
Much later a new version of The Tale of Years was made, and this alone will concern us here. It very clearly belongs with the major work on the Annals carried out in 1951( - 2), issuing in the last versions, the Annals of Aman and the Grey Annals. My father subsequently made a typescript text of it, but this obviously belongs to the same period.
…
Of the latter or Beleriandic part of The Tale of Years there is little to say until the last entries are reached. The chronology agrees closely with that of the Grey Annals, including the revised stories of the origins of Gondolin and of Eol, and the brief entries (agreeing with GA in such names as Galion for Galdor and Glindur for Maeglin) add nothing to the major text. …
But from the point where the Grey Annals were abandoned The Tale of Years becomes a major source for the end of the Elder Days, and indeed in almost all respects the only source deriving from the time following the completion of The Lord of the Rings, woefully inadequate as it is. As the manuscript was originally made (in which condition I will distinguish it as 'A') the entries from 500 to the end, very brief, followed the first (pre-Lord of the Rings) version of The Tale of Years (see p. 342) closely: my father clearly had that in front of him, and did no more than make a fair copy with fuller entries, introducing virtually no new matter or dates not found in AB 2 (V.141 - 4). It will make things clearer, however, to give the text of the entries for those years as they were first written.

500 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
501 Making of the Naugla-mir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
502 The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel.
506 The Second Kin-slaying.
…
In the next stage, which I will call 'B', many corrections and interpolations and alterations of date were made to A; I give here the text in this form, so far as is necessary.

501 Return of Hurin.
502 After seven years' service Tuor weds Idril of Gondolin.
Making of the Naugla-mir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
503 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel; and are wroth to find the Silmaril not there. Dior goes to Doriath.
505 (Spring) Second death of Beren, and Luthien dies also. Dior Thingol's heir wears Silmaril [struck out: and returns to Doriath].
509 (Spring) Second Kinslaying. …
…
The hastily made alterations and additions to the entry 503 (502 in A) introduced major new turns into the story as it had been told in all the versions: the tale of The Nauglafring (II.238), the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.33), the Quenta (IV.134), and AB 2 (V.141). There it was Beren, after his return from the dead, who with his host of Elves ambushed the Dwarves at Sarn-athrad, and took from them the Nauglamir in which was set the Silmaril; now it becomes Celegorm and Curufin who fought the battle at Sarn-athrad - but the Silmaril was not there, because Melian had taken it from Menegroth to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand. In the old tale, Gwendelin (Melian), coming to the Land of the Dead that Live after the battle, was wrathful when she saw Luthien wearing the Necklace of the Dwarves, since it was made of accursed gold, and the Silmaril itself was unhallowed from its having been set in Morgoth's crown; while in the Sketch (probably) and in the Quenta (explicitly) it was Melian who told Beren of the approach of the Dwarves coming from Doriath and enabled the ambush to be prepared (her warning afterwards, when the Necklace of the Dwarves had been recovered, against the Silmaril being retained).
The entrance of Celegorm and Curufin into the story seems to have arisen in the act of emending the text; for my father first added to the original entry ('Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel') the words 'and is wounded in battle', referring to Beren (cf. the Tale, II.237: 'Beren got many hurts'). He then at once changed 'Beren destroys' to 'Celegorm and Curufin destroy' and 'is wounded in battle' to 'are wroth to find the Silmaril not there'.
In the original entry in A 'at Rath-loriel' was just a slip for 'in'; but the replacement 'at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel' is strange, for Sarn-athrad was not a ford over that river (Ascar) but over Gelion, and so remained in the latest writing, though the name was changed (see p. 335).
In 505, the striking out of Dior's return to Doriath preceded its inclusion under 503. …

The third stage was the striking out of the whole manuscript from the year 400 almost to the end, and its replacement by a new version ('C'), which I give here for the same period, from the return of Hurin from Angband: this is a clear text with some later changes to the dates (changes which largely return the dates to those in B).
501 Return of Hurin from captivity. He goes to Nargothrond and seizes the treasure of Glaurung.
502 Making of the Nauglamir. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves.
503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. Now Curufin and Celegorm hearing of the sack of Menegroth ambushed the Dwarves at the fords of Ascar and defeated them; but the Dwarves cast the gold into the river, which was after named Rathloriel. Great was the chagrin of the Sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not assail Luthien.
Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to reestablish the realm.
504 [> 502] Tuor wedded Idril Celebrindal Turgon's daughter of Gondolin.
505 [> 503] Birth of Earendil Half-elven in Gondolin (Spring).
Here a messenger brought the Silmaril by night to Dior in Doriath, and he wore it; and by its power Doriath revived for a while. But it is believed that in this year Luthien and Beren passed away, for they were never heard of again on earth: mayhap the Silmaril hastened their end, for the flame of the beauty of Luthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.
511 [> 509] The Second Kinslaying. The Sons of Feanor assail[ed] Dior, and he was slain; slain also were Celegorm and Curufin and Cranthir. Eldun and Elrun sons of Dior were left in the woods to starve. Elwing escaped and came with the Silmaril to the Mouths of Sirion. …
…
… In the entries 400-499 in C (not given here) this text is so close in every date and detail of narrative to the Grey Annals as to be scarcely an independent document; and The Tale of Years was beginning to turn in on itself, so to speak, and to become 'Annals' again. In the entries given above, where we reach narrative not treated in GA and where AB 2 is otherwise the latest source, it is much to be regretted that my father did not allow this tendency even fuller scope, and did not extend into a more substantial narrative of Celegorm and Curufin at Sarn Athrad, the revival of Doriath, and the Second Kinslaying.
I add a few notes on particular points.
503 The ford at which the Dwarves were ambushed, not now itself named, is still over Ascar, not Gelion (see p. 347). The statement that the Dwarves 'cast the gold into the river' is at variance with the story told in the Sketch and the Quenta (where this was done by Beren and the Green-elves), and was perhaps a conscious return to the tale of The Nauglafring (II.237), in which the gold fell into the river with the bodies of the Dwarves who bore it, or else was cast into the water by Dwarves seeking to reach the banks.
505 With the changed dating of this entry the whole narrative of the invasion of Doriath, the battle at the ford, the coming of Dior to Doriath, the deaths of Beren and Luthien, and the bringing of the Silmaril to Dior, is comprised within the single year 503. - The brief revival of Doriath under Dior has not before been associated with the Silmaril; cf. what is said of its presence at the Havens of Sirion (pp. 351, 354). On the probable association of the Silmaril with the deaths of Beren and Luthien (though of an entirely different nature from that suggested here) see IV.63, 190.
511 On the fate of Dior's sons cf. AB 2 (V.142), where it is told that they 'were taken captive by the evil men of Maidros' following, and they were left to starve in the woods; but Maidros lamented the cruel deed, and sought unavailingly for them.' …

Finally, we come to stage 'D', the typescript of The Tale of Years; but before turning to the entries beginning with the return of Hurin there are two pencilled entries on the typescript at a slightly earlier point which must be noticed:

497 Dior weds of the Green-elves > Dior weds Nimloth.
500 Birth of the twin sons of Dior, Elrun and Eldun.

In connection with the first of these, there is an isolated note (it was written in fact on the back of the single page concerning the Dragon-helm of Dorlomin referred to on pp. 140, 143):
Dior born (in Tol Galen?) c.470. He appears in Doriath after its ruin, and is welcomed by Melian with his wife Elulin of Ossiriand.
On this note see p. 353, year 504. The fourth letter of Elulin is not perfectly certain. - In addition, the name of Dior's wife is also given as Lindis: see pp. 351, 353.
The name Nimloth was adopted in the published Silmarillion (see p. 234, where she is said to be 'kinswoman of Celeborn') on account of its appearance in the series of Elvish genealogies which can be dated to December 1959 (p. 229). This table gives the descendants of Elwe (Thingol) and of his younger brother Elmo, of whom it is said that he was 'beloved of Elwe with whom he remained.' On one side of the table (descent from Elwe) the wife of Dior Eluchil (Thingol's heir) is Nimloth 'sister of Celeborn'. Similarly on the other side, Elmo's son is Galahon, and Galahon has two sons, Galathil and Celeborn 'prince of Doriath', and a daughter Nimloth, wife of Dior Eluchil. But on the same table Nimloth wife of Dior also appears as the daughter of Galathil (thus in the first case she was the second cousin of Dior, and in the latter the third cousin of Elwing). It is clear from rough pencillings on this page that my father was uncertain about this, and it looks as if Nimloth as niece of Celeborn was his second thought. I referred to this genealogy in Unfinished Tales, p. 233, but did not mention the alternative placing of Nimloth as Celeborn's sister.
On the second of these late additions to the typescript, the birth of Eldun and Elrun in the year 500, see pp. 257 and 300, note 16.

I give now the text of the typescript of The Tale of Years in its concluding entries. At the end the typescript becomes manuscript, and it is convenient to distinguish the two parts as 'D 1' and 'D 2'.
501 Hurin is released from captivity. He goes to Nargothrond and seizes the treasure of Glaurung. He takes the treasure to Menegroth and casts it at the feet of Thingol.
502 The Nauglamir is wrought of the treasure of Glaurung, and the Silmaril is hung thereon. Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves who had wrought for him the Necklace.
503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. King Elu Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian escapes and carries away the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brings them to Beren and Luthien. She then forsook Middle-earth and returned to Valinor.
Curufin and Celegorm, hearing of the sack of Menegroth, ambushed the Dwarves at the Fords of Ascar as they sought to carry off the Dragon-gold to the mountains. The Dwarves were defeated with great loss, but they cast the gold into the river, which was therefore after named Rathloriel. Great was the anger of the sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not to assail Luthien. Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to recover the realm of Thingol.
…
In the autumn of this year a messenger brought by night the Silmaril to Dior in Doriath.

Here the typewritten text D 1 ends abruptly near the head of a page, but is continued in very rough manuscript for some distance (D 2), though not so far as the end of version C (which itself did not go by any mean's so far as B).

503 Elwing the White daughter of Dior born in Ossiriand.
504 Dior returns to Doriath, and with the power of the Silmaril restores it; but Melian departed to Valinor. Dior now publicly wore the Nauglamir and the Jewel.
505 The sons of Feanor hearing news of the Silmaril that it is in Doriath hold council. Maidros restrains his brethren, but a message is sent to Dior demanding the Jewel. Dior returns no answer.
506 Celegorn inflames the brethren, and they prepare an assault on Doriath. They come up at unawares in winter.
506-507 At Yule Dior fought the sons of Feanor on the east marches of Doriath, and was slain. There fell also Celegorn (by Dior's hand) and Curufin and Cranthir. The cruel servants of Celegorn seize Dior's sons (Elrun and Eldun) and leave them to starve in the forest. (Nothing certain is known of their fate, but some say that the birds succoured them, and led them to Ossir.) [In margin: Maidros repenting seeks unavailingly for the children of Dior.] The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
…
… A commentary on it [the text] follows.
501 In the original story of Hurin's coming to Menegroth in the Tale of Turambar (II.114 - 15) he with his 'band' or 'host' of 'wild Elves' brought the treasure of Nargothrond in a huge assemblage of sacks and boxes, and they 'cast down that treasury at the king's feet.' So also in the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32) 'Hurin casts the gold at Thingol's feet', without however any indication of how the gold was brought to Doriath; but in the Quenta (IV.132) 'Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves' (on the unsatisfactory nature of this version see IV.188). In AB 2 (V.141) 'Hurin brought the gold to Thingol.' See further p. 258.
503. Against 'The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath' my father pencilled an X and the single word 'cannot': i.e., the Dwarves could not pass the Girdle of Melian. In the old sources the protective magic was defeated by the device of a treacherous Elf (in the Tale) or Elves (in the Sketch and the Quenta); but since the Quenta the question had never again come to the surface. In this connection there is a page of rough notes, such as my father often made when meditating on a story at large, concerned with the 'Turins Saga' (such as 'An account of Beleg and his bow must be put in at the point where Turin first meets him', and 'Turin must be faithless to Gwindor - for his character is throughout that of a man of good will, kind and loyal, who is carried away by emotion, especially wrath ...'); and among these and written at the same time, though entirely unconnected, is the following:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

The word 'cannot' may well have been written against the entry for 503 in The Tale of Years at the same time as this.
The story that it was Celegorm and Curufin who ambushed the Dwarves at 'the Fords of Ascar' is repeated without change from the previous version C (p. 348). There is a passing reference to a similar story (for in this case it was Caranthir, not Celegorm and Curufin) in the post-Lord of the Rings text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn. This was published in Unfinished Tales in a 'retold', somewhat selective form for the purposes of that section of the book; and in the passage (p. 235) saying that Celeborn had no love for any Dwarves, and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath ('passing over Morgoth's part in this (by angering of Hurin), and Thingol's own faults'), my father proposed rather than stated that only the Dwarves of Nogrod took part in the assault, and that they were 'almost entirely destroyed by Caranthir'.
This was not, however, his final view, as it appears. In a letter of 1963 (Letters no.247, p. 334) he wrote that he could 'foresee' one event in the Elder Days in which the Ents took a part:
It was in Ossiriand ... that Beren and Luthien dwelt for a while after Beren's return from the Dead. Beren did not show himself among mortals again, except once. He intercepted a dwarf-army that had descended from the mountains, sacked the realm of Doriath and slain King Thingol, Luthien's father, carrying off a great booty, including Thingol's necklace upon which hung the Silmaril. There was a battle about a ford across one of the Seven Rivers of Ossir, and the Silmaril was recovered ... It seems clear that Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents - and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves.

In this it is also notable that the old story that the Dwarves took the Nauglamir from Menegroth reappears (see pp. 346-7).
Beneath the -loriel of Rathloriel my father wrote in pencil: lorion (Rathlorion was the original form of this river-name), but he struck this out and then wrote mallen, sc. Rathmallen (cf. Rathmalad (?) on the map, p. 191, §69).
504 Dior's return to Doriath has been given already under 503 in D 1, the typescript part of the text. - In the B and C versions (pp. 346-7) Melian brought the Silmaril to Beren and Luthien in Ossiriand and then departed to Valinor, and this is said also in D 1 (p. 350). The present entry in D 2, a year later, repeats that Melian went to Valinor, and the suggestion is that she was in Doriath when Dior came; cf. the note cited on p. 350: 'Dior... appears in Doriath after its ruin, and is welcomed by Melian'. This seems clearly to have been the story in AB 1 (IV.307) and AB 2 (V.141 - 2). But it is impossible to be certain of anything with such compressed entries.
506-507 Ossir: Ossiriand. - On Maidros' unavailing search for Elrun and Eldun see p. 349, year 511.
The Lady Lindis: Lindis appears elsewhere as the name of Dior's wife (see p. 257). The sentence 'Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion' presumably means that Lindis heard the rumour that the survivors of Gondolin had reached the Havens (an event recorded in this text under the year 511).
…
It would be interesting to know when this manuscript conclusion D 2 was written. It looks as if it belongs with some of the alterations and additions made to the typescript in earlier entries, particularly those pertaining to the story of Turin, and in these there are suggestions that they derive from the period of my father's work on the Narn. But this is very uncertain; and if it is so, it is the more remarkable that he should have based these entries so closely on the old pre-Lord of the Rings annals.

A note on Chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath in the published Silmarillion.

Apart from a few matters of detail in texts and notes that have not been published, all that my father ever wrote on the subject of the ruin of Doriath has now been set out: from the original story told in the Tale of Turambar (II.113-15) and the Tale of the Nauglafring (II.221 ff.), through the Sketch of the Mythology (IV.32 - 3, with commentary 61 - 3) and the Quenta (IV.132 - 4, with commentary 187-91), together with what little can be gleaned from The Tale of Years and a very few later references (see especially pp. 352 - 3). If these materials are compared with the story told in The Silmarillion it is seen at once that this latter is fundamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings.
There were very evident problems with the old story. Had he ever turned to it again, my father would undoubtedly have found some solution other than that in the Quenta to the question, How was the treasure of Nargothrond brought to Doriath? There, the curse that Mim laid upon the gold at his death 'came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Hurin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Hurin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.' As I said in IV.188, 'it ruins the gesture, if Hurin must get the king himself to send for the gold with which he is then to be humiliated'. It seems to me most likely (but this is mere speculation) that my father would have reintroduced the outlaws from the old Tales (II.113-15, 222-3) as the bearers of the treasure (though not the fierce battle between them and the Elves of the Thousand Caves): in the scrappy writings at the end of The Wanderings of Hurin Asgon and his companions reappear after the disaster in Brethil and go with Hurin to Nargothrond (pp. 306 - 7)
How he would have treated Thingol's behaviour towards the Dwarves is impossible to say. That story was only once told fully, in the Tale of the Nauglafring, in which the conduct of Tinwelint (precursor of Thingol) was wholly at variance with the later conception of the king (see II.245-6). In the Sketch no more is said of the matter than that the Dwarves were 'driven away without payment', while in the Quenta 'Thingol... scanted his promised reward for their labour; and bitter words grew between them, and there was battle in Thingol's halls'. There seems to be no clue or hint in later writing (in The Tale of Years the same bare phrase is used in all the versions: 'Thingol quarrels with the Dwarves'), unless one is seen in the words quoted from Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn on p. 353: Celeborn in his view of the destruction of Doriath ignored Morgoth's part in it 'and Thingol's own faults'.
In The Tale of Years my father seems not to have considered the problem of the passage of the Dwarvish host into Doriath despite the Girdle of Melian, but in writing the word 'cannot' against the D version (p. 352) he showed that he regarded the story he had outlined as impossible, for that reason. In another place he sketched a possible solution (ibid.): 'Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.'

In the story that appears in The Silmarillion the outlaws who went with Hurin to Nargothrond were removed, as also was the curse of Mim; and the only treasure that Hurin took from Nargothrond was the Nauglamir - which was here supposed to have been made by Dwarves for Finrod Felagund, and to have been the most prized by him of all the hoard of Nargothrond. Hurin was represented as being at last freed from the delusions inspired by Morgoth in his encounter with Melian in Menegroth. The Dwarves who set the Silmaril in the Nauglamir were already in Menegroth engaged on other works, and it was they who slew Thingol; at that time Melian's power was withdrawn from Neldoreth and Region, and she vanished out of Middle-earth, leaving Doriath unprotected. The ambush and destruction of the Dwarves at Sarn Athrad was given again to Beren and the Green Elves (following my father's letter of 1963 quoted on p. 353, where the Ents, 'Shepherds of the Trees', were introduced.
This story was not lightly or easily conceived, but was the outcome of long experimentation among alternative conceptions. In this work Guy Kay took a major part, and the chapter that I finally wrote owes much to my discussions with him. It is, and was, obvious that a Step was being taken of a different order from any other 'manipulation' of my father's own writing in the course of the book: even in the case of the story of The Fall of Gondolin, to which my father had never returned, something could be contrived without introducing radical changes in the narrative. It seemed at that time that there were elements inherent in the story of the Ruin of Doriath as it stood that were radically incompatible with 'The Silmarillion' as projected, and that there was here an inescapable choice: either to abandon that conception, or else to alter the story. I think now that this was a mistaken view, and that the undoubted difficulties could have been, and should have been, surmounted without so far overstepping the bounds of the editorial function.

It remains at last to give a storyline in the chapter 22 The Fall of Doriath of The Quenta Silmarillion in the published The Silmarillion (Sil77). The changes introduce by Christopher Tolkien are mentioned already above, but I still will give a short storyline:

Hurin has no companions, when he reaches Nargothrond. He killed Mîm because of Mîms treason against Turin. The hoard is not crused further than being a dragon-hoard. Hurin only took the Nauglamir and brought it to Menegroth. Hurin is healed by Melian, but gave the Nauglamir nonetheless to Thingol who accepted it. Hurin left Menegroth and it is told that he cast himself in the western sea.
Some Dwarves of Nogrod are already in Menegroth and Thingol bid them to bring the Silmaril and the Nauglamir together. He is with the Dwarves during the smithy and when the work is done the Dwarves withheld the Nauglamir from him. Thingol scorned and denied the Dwarves any payment and is slain by them. The Dwarves take the Nauglamir and passed out Menegroth but were pursued and slain save two. The Nauglamir is brought back to Menegroth and guarded by Mablung. The two surviving Dwarves made it to Nogrod, and told there only that the Dwarves were slain by the command of Thingol to cheat them of their reward. The Dwarves of Nogrod ask the aid of Belegost but it is denied. A host of Nogord marched to Doriath.
After the death of Thingol Melain sends word to Beren and Luthien and left Doritah and went to Valinor.
The Dwarves invade Doriath and take Menegroth. There they kill Mablung and take the Nauglamir.
Beren with Dior and the Green-Elves of Ossiriand ambush the Dwarves at Saran Athrad. Dwarves that made it out of the battle are killed by the Ents. Beren kills the Lord of Nogord but he crused the Hoard. Thus Beren only takes the Nauglamir and the rest of the Hoard is drowned in the river Ascar.
Dior left Ossiriand and re-established Doriath. He receives the Nauglamir after the death of Beren and Luthien.
The Sons of Feanor claim the Silmaril but Dior made no answer. Celegorm stirred his brethren and they attack Doriath. The kill Dior in Menegroth. Celegrom is slain by Dior and Curufin and Caranthir are also slain. Nimloth is also killed and the Sons of Dior left to strafe in the woods.
But a few Elves fled before the Feanorians and with them was Elwing with the Nauglamir.

So fare with the sources. The next step it must be to bring them together to a storyline that we will adopt, and I will try that in the next post.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

In this post I will try to develop a storyline that can be adopted for our Version of FoD. I will not recapitulate the storylines that were developed by Maedhros and myself for our drafts of the story. After we have found the storyline that we want we should make a intense comparison.
I will number the single entities I see in the storyline for better reference with FD-SL-ZZ (SL for storyline).

FD-SL-01 From the notes at the end of The Wanderings of Húrin it is clear that the Band that Húrin gathered were of four-fold origin: Asgons Outlaws of Hithlum, part of Manthors party in Brethil that were not willing to live under Avranc, some people of Brethil that despaired in defending Brethil and some of the Woodmen from south of Taeglin. (These groups are the key to explain their behaviour later on. In my view the Outlaws are a very divergent group with Asgon and Ragnir as voices of opposite positions. The followers of Manthor would take Húrin as their rightful ruler as the last know decedent of the Haladin. The other two groups would go with them to find some better life as they had have so fare. They would most likely side with the Ragnir party and would rather take their share in the treasure than humiliate Thingol with it.)

FD-SL-02 Húrin elected to go to Nargothrond.

FD-SL-03 Mîm and his death is the first hard part we have to overcome: Mîm is now bound up with the House of Hador. He had given away Túrin to the Orcs. In none of JRR Tolkiens tellings of Mîms death was this the case. In TT it is Húrin who kills Mîm after he had uttered bitter words and cruses over the Outlaws bearing away the gold. In the Q30 Mîm is slain by the Outlaws and Húrin would have stopped them. In Any other source no specific information is given. In Sil77 Húrin must kill Mîm since he is alone and does it by reason of Mîms treason to Túrin. But the scene in Sil77 seems not so well developed to me. Húrin is able of such violence as the killing of Mîm would be but in Brethil he showed it more in the fashion of outbursts of fury, and Mîm who was not willing to depart from a sack of roots (even if they were of gold as is suggested) would not give away the treasure of Nagothrond so easily. If Húrin did know of the treason of Mîm is not so clear to me. What would have reported would be the dead of Khîm and Túrins not fulfilled promise to pay a wergild for Khîm when ever he comes to some riches. Thus for me it would be thinkable that the Outlaws would kill Mîm despise the will of Húrin as in Q30.

FD-SL-04 The cruse of Mîm has clearly to be re-established in our version since Tolkien never discarded it.

FD-SL-05 That the outlaws died in quarrels on the road as in Q30 should not be used if we follow Christopher Tolkiens suggestions in TY that the outlaws are the the way to bring the treasure to Menegroth.

FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT.

FD-SL-07 The conversation between Húrin and Thingol might need change but the outcome is clear: Húrin left Menegroth after he had cast the hoard at Thingols feed and blamed him for the death of Nienor and Morwen. That he was healed by Melain must go, since we have no trace of it in JRR Tolkiens text and it fit the tragedy of the Narn even better if he goes with out healing. In all full told versions he goes forth from Menegroth alone and I think now we should stick to that. His further fate is unknown safe the rumour that he had cast himself in the western sea.

The behaviour of the Outlaws was already discussed at length. But it is still the most clumsy part of the tale. Things that must be answered or left ambiguous in our Version:
FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely.
FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken.
FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed.

FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown.

FD-SL-13 In TN after they had fashioned many nice things the Dwarves asked Thingol to make the Nauglafring. In S and the Q30 it sounds more like Thingol asking them to make the Nauglamir but the text is very compressed and such detail might be lost by compression. Seeing in The Hobbit what a self-illuminated jewel does with the heart of a Dwarf I would rather go back to the old tale were it seemed already part of the plan of the Dwarves to get the Silmaril by bringing it together with the gold of doubtful ownership. At least I would like to have the request for the Nauglamir put after Dwarves showed their talent at the gold.

As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that:
FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward.
FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away.
FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit:

“… In ancient days they [the Woodelves] had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. …”

I think we must skip the battle or at least no Dwarf should be slain therein, since otherwise the Dwarves would blame the Elves to have killed their kin without justice. But can we think of a battle were Elves were slain and the Dwarves only driven away? Properly yes, but why should the grave of the slain Elves be call “the Mound of Avarice”?
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment.

FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves.

FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage.
FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived.
FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar).

FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien.
I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN).

FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN.
FD-SL-25 It would be difficult to use the Letter more strictly and cut out the Green-Elves completely. In this respect I think we should regard the words “Beren has no army” of the Letter as a planed reconstruction not workable with the text we have. The only thing we could do is make the number of Elves as small as thinkable. We could use the counter-attack of the dwarves told in TN led them into the woods were they were attacked by the Ents instate or in addition of the flight of a company as it is in Sil77. In that way we could (implicit not explicit of course) reduce the Green-Elves to a very small band just great enough to make the Dwarves furious enough to rush into a fight against them.

FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it.

FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text.

FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like.

FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best.

FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY.

FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version.

That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told:
FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain.
FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods.
FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”.

FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion.

So fare what I think should be our storyline. I hope it will help to create a version of tale that we all can go with.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

FD-SL-06 We must contrive some way for Húrin and the Outlaws to pass the girdle of Melian. At least they can not reach the doors of Menegroth unforeseen, as it is in the text of TT.

Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.

FD-SL-08 - Was there a fight between them and the Elves? Probably not since that seemed the reason for the change in Q30 in which the Outlaws were removed completely.
FD-SL-09 - Did They take a part of the treasure out of Menegroth? The Asgon Party would probably not take any part of the treasure, but we are not so sure of Ragnir and the later two sub-groups discussed above. It might be best to be ambiguous in this point, but in a way that must allow some part of the treasure to be taken.
FD-SL-10 - What was their final fate or how could they overcome the cruse of Mîm? Meadhros argument that the cruse could not be laid aside by a more or less forced separating from the gold is valid. I think we must add some info on the fate of the outlaws that is ambiguous enough to be not a fan-fic but makes clear that they did (at least not all) overcome the cruse. It might be hard to work this out, but it seems to me really needed.

I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle.
As for the treasure, I would make them take some bits of it as Thingol offered in the Tale.
I tried to make ambiguous the fate of the outlaws in my latest draft.

.} [Now though] {D}[d]oughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs [, they departed from Doriath, fearing the strength of Menegroth. About the fate of the outlaws, no tales tells, yet it is said by some that the curse came upon them, and they died or were slained in quarrels upon the road].

FD-SL-11 The next step is Thingols engagement with the Dwarves. Since the later Thingol was already rich the question must be answered why he lured for the hoard. Was he so easily overcome by Mîm’s cruse? In TN he was reluctant at first and was dragged to it by Ufedhin. I think that we need some one in Ufedhins role her to urge Thingol not to follow Melains counsel. And if we use such a role here, we might take that role also to suggest the engagement of the Dwarves.

I entirely disagree with this. We have already a precedent in the Of Beren and Lúthien story that Thingol is able by himself to disregard the counsel of his wife Melian, and besides using a character such as Ufedhin who would be a true traitor, even bigger than what Maeglin was in the Fall of Gondolin and to have no real background of him besides even JRRT wrote this:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

It would have been very simple for JRRT to simply return to the old story of using a traitor in there but he didn't, and I think that we cannot either.

FD-SL-12 The transporting of half the hoard to Nogord as in TN is out of question, thus the Dwarves most come to Menegroth and smith the gold there. But TN has one great advantage that was never gainsaid later but also never clearly used: the contract between Thingol and the Dwarves is never really set. Both sides do not ask the exact conditions they work under. Thus the trouble that awakes is here already sown.

I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.
Such a great worked gold would definitely would make Thingol think twice before throwing it away.
Perhaps this could work into our advantage in that the dwarves were only summoned to make the Nauglamír and some other little smitting of the gold. And the quarrel of the dwarves and Thingol is to be because of differences in the amount of gold that Thingol is to paid them and we would cut the other types of payment that the dwarves wanted from the Tale.

I will comment on the rest of it later.

[Maédhros]

As we are given not much evidence at all what happened after the work of the Dwarves was finished, we can only conclude that:
FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.

What is plant treasury?

FD-SL-15 - Thingol scanted his promised reward.
FD-SL-16 - The Dwarves were driven away.
FD-SL-17 Further we have to decide if there was a battle between the dwarves and the elves. Q30 has such a battle. But we have to take into account the blame of the Dwarves against the Elves in The Hobbit:
Quote:
“… In ancient days they [the Woodelves] had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due, for the elf-king had bar- gained with them to shape his raw gold and silver, and had afterwards refused to give them their pay. …”

I think we must skip the battle or at least no Dwarf should be slain therein, since otherwise the Dwarves would blame the Elves to have killed their kin without justice. But can we think of a battle were Elves were slain and the Dwarves only driven away? Properly yes, but why should the grave of the slain Elves be call “the Mound of Avarice”?
In my view the battle has to go. There was “Thingols quarrel with the Dwarves” and the Dwarves were driven away without a fitting payment.

I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold.

FD-SL-18 The plotting of revenge that the Dwarves of Nogrod made must be without the Dwarves of Belegost following the material in Unfinished Tales and it is the savviest way to skip the Orks TN as well. Thus the only fighting forces were the Dwarves of Nogrod. FD-SL-19 But I think that the message about Mîms death during the taking of the treasure from Nargothrond cold be used. It would add some new wrath to hearts of the Dwarves.

Agree on this.

FD-SL-20 Treachery of some Elves should be included in the plot, since it was prominent in the early plot and would add plausibility to the later idea. If we don’t want to add fan-fictional elements the plot could only deal with the writings given. Thus Naugladur must gain knowledge of the traditional hunt by treachery and use this occasion to his advantage.

I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt.

FD-SL-21 Beyond that we only have: “Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.” We could skip the part “or induced to go to war beyond his borders” when we use the scene with the traditional wolf-hunt but we should not invent further details of how it was contrived.
FD-SL-22 Further details of the killing of Thingol could be added since it is most likely that he and Mablung behaved brave during the fight and were the last to die and that Naugladur did not risk a direct confrontation. But it is thinkable that he meddled with the dead body of Thingol (at least to fetch the Silmaril). And “the head on a pole” is attested for Dwarves that look for revenge (see the treatment with Azog after the battle of Azanulbizar).

Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders. I agree on the further details part.

FD-SL-23 In all versions of JRR Tolkien Melian played a part in the story after the death of Thingol. She mostly is seen as escaping the Dwarves and bringing the message of the first ruin of Doriath to Beren and Luthien. And later she seems to play a part in the resurrection of Doriath at least in welcoming Dior to the realm. But I think that this parts have to go. The above given quote is all we have concerning the way the girdle of Melian was passed by the hostile army of the Dwarves. And I think that we have to take it literal. Thingol is “slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs”. What a state of mind could we contrive for her to remove the girdle so that the Elves of Doriath could be killed in heaps and than go to Beren and tell him about it which would clearly led him to revenge the death of Thingol? Or are we really going to tell that she wandered witless and found Lúthien by mere luck? That would be thinkable, but not very likely. It is to long a way from Menegroth to Tol Galen for a witless wandering even for a Maiar to reach Beren in time. We even have to ask if she was smart enough to send a message to Beren and Lúthien.
I think that it would be savviest to let her go at once after Thingols death. The message to Beren and Lúthien could be made anonym or maybe send by some servant who got wind of the events by talking to Melian while she felt the death of Thingol (Nielthi in TN).

Again, I completely disagree.

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter. JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled. As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable. Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter? I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger.

FD-SL-24 Berens fight with the Dwarves and the part taken by the Green-Elves and the Ents was Christopher Tolkiens way to deal with Letter no. 247 of 1963 and I think we should retain his plot here but possibly add some details of the fight from TN.

I think that this works very good. I would not dismiss the green elves either.

FD-SL-26 The fight of Beren and Naugladur is well told in TN and as jet I can’t see any reason not to use it.

I think that it should be used.

FD-SL-27 It remains one critical point: How did the gold come into the River Ascar? In TN the Ascar was the name of the later Gelion and then in some later accounts the ford was changed to led over the River Ascar and Gelion after there amalgamation (see the eastward extension of the first Silmarllion map). But in the second Silmarllion Map the Dwarf-road led north of the River Ascar into mountains and Sarn athrad is again the ford over Gelion. Thus we can not use the picture of TN were the treasure was cast in the river by the Dwarves when they take to flight or fell in to the river when the dwarves who bore it were killed. The Elves must have removed it actively to the river Ascar und flung it into that river. We have to introduce that to our text.

I had not thought of that. Good point.

FD-SL-28 The description of Lúthien wearing the Nauglamir is similar in many accounts. We can choose here the latest and add maybe some details of wording if we like.

FD-SL-29 Dior is in TY seen as leaving Tol Galen soon after the Battle of Sarn Athrad. And the description of his family would also come in here at best.

FD-SL-30 The message of second death of Beren and Lúthien as recorded in Sil77 is based on TY as it seems. And we should take that account even if it is constructed by Christopher Tolkien.

FD-SL-31 That Dior wore the Silmaril in public and that the jewel help him in restoring Doritah should be in-cooperated from TY.

FD-SL-32 Also we should mention that Maedhros restrains his brethren in the fist council. In TN the messenger sent to Dior was Curufin himself. There are some reason against that but I don’t think they are overwhelming and I would re-establish the conversation between Curufin and Dior from TN in our version.

I'm ok with this.

That it was Celegrom who inflamed the brethren in the second council should also be in cooperated. The Details of the fight in Midwinter should be told:
FD-SL-33 The Feanorians won a battle against Dior at the east marches but Celegrom was slain there by Dior how was killed also. Curufin and Caranthir are also slain.
FD-SL-34 Then the Feanorians sacked Menegroth but did not find the Silmarill since Elwing had fled away with it, while the sons Dior were captured and left to strave in the woods.
FD-SL-35 The Feanorians were attacked by a late coming company of the Sindar and Feanorians were in the end “masters of field of dead”.

FD-SL-36 Last of all we have to recount the further flight of Elwing. In TY her mother is with her and they first go to Ossiriand and later when they hear of fugitives of Gondolin they join them at the Mouth of Sirion.

I'm ok with this too.

[Findegil]

FD-SL-06: Posted by Maedhros:

Ever since our last discussion of the Ruin of Doriath, I have thinked about this and I think that there is a simple way to do this. We can move the scene that Húrin and the Outlaws reached the doors of Menegroth and change it so that they reached some outside part of the Girdle of Melian and that they are transported into Menegroth. That change would involved minimal editorial alterations by our part.

That was what I tried with the secret bridge over Sirion. But it is clearly not quite sufficient since the Gridle protected Nivrim. I am sure that we can find some solution.

FD-SL-08: Posted by Maedhros:

I still think that as Aiwendil suggest way back and CT did is that it would be best for us not remove that battle.

I think the "not" is just a typo. Aiwendil and Christopher Tolkien did suggest to remove the fight. And I strongly agree with that, as you seems to do.

FD-SL-09 & FD-SL-10: I am still not quiet happy with the scene of the departure and the suggestion of some fate for the outlaws. It might be that we need the help such a master of ambiguous writing as Aiwendil to do that in a fashion that satisfies us all.

FD-SL-11: So were are again in a dead lock. Since I can not see Thingol simply dismiss his first impulse to get ride of the treasure just by looking on it again. Further I think that you overestimated the role I would use Ufedhin here. I would have taken him as an Elf that had fallen under the cruse of Mîm and did lure Thingol not to through the gold away, nothing more. When I think about the behaviour of Saeros during the feast he is an good example for an Elf-Lord that would fit the role of Ufedhin I have proposed above.
The later treason of Narthseg (which I only meant to bring Naugladur some info of the hunt so that he could time his machinations to lure Thingol out of the Gridle) is a completely independent issue. It could of course be connected by using one and the same person in both roles, but that would really be to much liberty in creating a new character.

FD-SL-12: Posted by Maedhros:

I think that we are forgetting one very important point in here. The gold that we are talking about here as in the Tale of the Nauglafring was the gold of the simple Rodothlim that were in no way comparable as to the later Ñoldor of Nargothrond. Remember that in the Tale the gold was not worked but it would seem to me unthinkable that the horde of Nargothrond under Finrod Felagund would be in such state. I'm not really sure how much worked that gold would need. To me it would be very beautiful pieces of gold.

That is a valid argument. But even if the people of Nargothrond were the most cunning Noldor-smith of all there would have been the possibility of a big hoard of un-fashioned gold in the halls of Nargothrond. But I must say that in this direction I had overdone it in my version of FoD by taking the descriptions of both results the smithies of the Dwarves together. Maybe we should use the first one to describe the treasure when it is brought forth by Húrin and the Outlaws.
I am not convinced that the Dwarves were only engaged to fashion the Nauglamir.
The other payments demanded by the Dwarves are clearly debatable. But we need something to lunch a quarrel and these demanded payments seemed perfect for that.

FD-SL-14 - The Dwarves already plant treasury.
Oh, sorry a bad misprint of mine. It should read: The Dwarves already planed treachery. Meaning that they lusted for the treasure and sought for a way to get hold on it.

Posted by Maedhros:

I see no reason as to not have a battle between the dwarves and the Elves of Doriath. It can be seen that there was a quarrel between the Elves and dwarves that ended up in a battle between them. It seems perfectly logical thinking about the curse of the gold.

Consider the result of a battle: Dwarves would have been killed. Okay, now the Dwarves that were driven away would reach Nogrod. What ever they tell there they would have to give some account why some of them were slain. From The Hobbit we learn that the Dwarves started the war only for the withheld reward. Thus the Dwarves that returned must have given a tale in which the dead Dwarves were killed justly or the fight would have been re-lunched for revenge and not only for the reward.
Alternative we could consider the statement in The Hobbit to refer to the first fight in Menegroth between the Dwarven-smiths and the Elves. But that would mean that the Dwarven-smith must capture some part of the treasure for which we have no hint at all in JRR Tolkiens texts.

FD-SL-20: Posted by Maedhros:

I don't think that treachery of the elves should be used, instead I would use the idea of Naugladur would know about the hunt. I mean the dwarves had already worked in Menegroth before and it is very plausible that they would know about certain customs in Menegroth, as the hunt.

The plot is workable without the treason of some Elves. But why not use it? The yearly hunt of Thingol (which could have been know about by Naugladur) could have been everywhere in Doriath. An Elf new come from Menegroth would had have the necessary information for Naugladur were to look for Thingol to lure him out of the Girdle.
And up to this point you have been the one that argued with the potency of the cruse of Mîm. Isn't a treacherous Elf a plausibly result of that cruse?

FD-SL21: Posted by Maedhros:

Using the hunt is the way that Thingol is killed outside his borders.

Not really, the hunt would normally be lunched inside the Girdle or at least so I would think. Otherwise there would not be any need to lure Thingol to come out of protection. Which JRR Tolkien clearly saw.

FD-SL-23: Posted by Maedhros:

When Thingol is killed we can follow the TN where Melian feels that her husband is dead, her power of the Girdle is gone, she fleds to find her daughter.

But in TN the girdle is already out of function by the treason of Narthseg. And Melain did not fled to find Lúthien:

Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for as they came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other, and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode, and her bitter weeping filled the forest. Now did a great darkness fall upon her mind and her counsel and lore forsook her, at she wandered she knew not whither for a great while; and this was by reason of her love for Tinwelint the king, for whom she had chosen never to fare back to Valinor and the beauty of the Gods, dwelling always in the wild forests of the North; and now did there seem to her neither beauty nor joy be it in Valinor or in the Lands Without. Many of the scattered Elves in her wayward journeyings she met, and they took pity on her, but she heeded them not. Tales had they told her, but she hearkened not over much since Tinwelint was dead; ...

It is in S and in Q30 that Melain goes from Menegroth to seek Lúthien. And in both versions it is again treachery of the Elves that had removed the girdle. But this was not to the liking of JRR Tolkien as he later stated in TY.
Posted by Maedhros:

JRRT quote doesn't necessarily mean that Melian willingly removed the girdle but as CT imply in his version, that her power over it was gone, and that is why she fled.

I do not interpret the Sil77 version in that way. I think that you changed cause and effect here. Melian is trouble by the death of Thingol and forsook Middle-Earth. She did not remove the Girdle with some purpose but she did not longer care for it. She did not fled because she was no longer able to protect Doriath. She went way because here former life had fallen in ruin and was stripped from its sense for here by the death of Thingol. And last but not least, why should here power over the matter of Arda be gone with the death of Thingol? Do you see Melian acting with Thingol in a way like Sauron with the Ring? Possible but such a interpretation should not be forced on the reader of our version of the story.
Posted by Maedhros:

As to call her witless after such an event is to me unthinkable.

Not so for JRR Tolkien as seen in TN. But in my view you drive it even further by denying here power after the death of Thingol.
Posted by Maedhros:

Why wouldn't a maiar like her, who had not the restrictions that the later Istari had, would not be able to find her own daughter?

I agree on that point, in principle she would have been able to find Lúthien, but see next § of the post. And for Melian not being restricted like the Istari I would say she might even have been more ristricted by her former actions: permanent incarnation, living in the fashion of the Sindar for a very long time, childbirth, gaining power over the matter of Arda (creating the girdle). But that is clearly a argument for nothing since we do not know enough to make a valid comparison.
Posted by Maedhros:

I don't see any pressing evidence as to why Melian should not be the messenger.

To put it simple: The problem is the Girdle. Remove Melian and the problem is solved. Do not remove her, and you have to argue the Girdle away in some very risky fashion.

FD-SL-24: Yes it works well, and we have already done some step in removing the innumerable host of Green-Elves that jumped from behind each tree when Beren sounded his horn. When we workout the passage I will give the purposed further reduction a try and we can see how it works.

At least I have the feeling that we know begin to discuss the core of the problems we have each with version of the other and not only the textual details. Even if I in the moment don't see us move nearer to any agreement.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Just wanted to let both of you know that I've been following this discussion. I had been thinking that I would avoid commenting at all until Earendil was finished, but as things here look to be going ahead with or without me, I will see if I can make some kind of response later today. If not, then, alas, I'll be away for a few days with no internet.

I think I can say in general that I'm wary of a lot of the proposals so far and I may end up advocating a lot less use of LT, unfortunately.