Sméagol: Hero of the Third Age - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Em · 03-20-2004, 07:52 AM

i think that although he did 'steal' the ring, if Gollum hadn't of done, it might never have been destroyed.

Orcrist · 03-21-2004, 05:24 PM

I agree with Firefoot. Gollum wanted the ring for himself. in truth he did do what you say but i dont think that was his intention. he didnt mean to destroy the ring either. he just fell. intereting point though

Rikae · 10-09-2006, 08:12 PM

Well, I was about to start a new thread on the topic of Smeagol's stumble, but then I found this.

Nilpaurion, I'm curious, how can you be sure you were wrong? Doesn't this come down to speculation about Smeagol's unconscious motivations? I know that, to me at least, this brings to mind Freud's theory that "there are no accidents". I certainly believe Gollum/Smeagol's total conscious motivation was to get the ring back and nothing more, and this is what made him bite off Frodo's finger, take the ring and do his little dance of victory...but there was also a "chink of light" in his soul. There was some part of his mind, buried in his subconscious, perhaps, that was aware the ring was evil; always aware, for his long, long life that the murder of Deagol and his subsequent wretched existance was caused by the ring. I think that we can't discount the fact that there was some part of him that hated the ring, and perhaps desired its destruction. Now, if that part of him had so little control over his actions, there is no way he could have thrown the ring in the fire, something even Frodo, who consciously desired it, could not do. The only good action within the power of his will at that point was the one he took - he "stepped too far". I see it as one last desperate, half conscious impulse for good that caused him to fall.
Now, I'm aware there is an article on this site, and several posters here, that flatly dismiss this idea, but to me it makes more sense than either the idea of a random fall, or of Eru pushing people into the crack of doom. (Actually, though, if it was some sudden impulse in Smeagol's psyche, this could itself be seen as an act of Eru, although it would also include a subconscious choice on Smeagol's part).

Farael · 10-09-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoTK

Then suddenly, as before under the eaves of the Emyn Muil, Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape, scarcely more than the shadow of a living thing, a creature now wholly ruined and defeated, yet filled with a hideous lust and rage; and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the figure there spoke a commanding voice.
'Begone and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'

Now, we all know of the power the Ring had on Gollum. As a matter of fact, at some point (I can't remember exactly when) Frodo says to Smeagol/Gollum that if he ever attacks him again he will put on the ring and Gollum will have to obey him.

I picked up on that quote last time I read LoTR. To me it means that Frodo's words were like an order to Gollum. Once he attacked Frodo and took the Ring from him (touching Frodo in the process) he was forced (although subconsciously) to comply with Frodo's words. He casts himself into the fires of Mt. Doom and he brings the Ring along for the Ride... and ends with his his life and his precious.

Rikae · 10-09-2006, 10:41 PM

Ah! A prophecy. Yes, why didn't I see that before?

Of course, it still doesn't rule out the prophecy working through Smeagol, and his actions ... some part of him deciding, midjump, to swing one leg a few inches too far.
The fate of Middle Earth hanging in the balance - Smeagol loses his balance.
For some reason, I really like it & I think it's a shame Peter Jackson felt the need to change it.

Raynor · 10-10-2006, 12:53 AM

I don't think it was those words of Frodo that caused the fall of Gollum - but Grace:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #151

He did rob him and injure him in the end - but by a 'grace', that last betrayal was at a precise juncture when the final evil deed was the most beneficial thing any one cd. have done for Frodo!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #191

He (and the Cause) were saved - by Mercy : by the supreme value and efficacy of Pity and forgiveness of injury.

And more evidently here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letter #192

Frodo deserved all honour because he spent every drop of his power of will and body, and that was just sufficient to bring him to the destined point, and no further. Few others, possibly no others of his time, would have got so far. The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' (as one critic has said).

Rikae · 10-10-2006, 07:27 AM

Just to be clear, I wouldn't say they caused it either, but predicted it; it wasn't a spell Frodo cast, but a flash of intuitive knowledge on his part, though he mostly likely wasn't aware of it at the time.

03-21-2004, 05:24 PM	#2
Orcrist Wight Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: The Mines of Moria Posts: 239	I agree with Firefoot. Gollum wanted the ring for himself. in truth he did do what you say but i dont think that was his intention. he didnt mean to destroy the ring either. he just fell. intereting point though __________________ "A wedding! I love weddings! Drinks all around!" Jack Sparrow

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03-20-2004, 07:52 AM	#1
Em Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The deep, dark recesses of my mind Posts: 19	i think that although he did 'steal' the ring, if Gollum hadn't of done, it might never have been destroyed. __________________ 'So' a silvery voice spoke 'you are the one' and suddenly the ice-blue eyes from the shadows vanished. (The Fallen Creator, Emily Sarah)

10-09-2006, 08:12 PM	#3
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Well, I was about to start a new thread on the topic of Smeagol's stumble, but then I found this. Nilpaurion, I'm curious, how can you be sure you were wrong? Doesn't this come down to speculation about Smeagol's unconscious motivations? I know that, to me at least, this brings to mind Freud's theory that "there are no accidents". I certainly believe Gollum/Smeagol's total conscious motivation was to get the ring back and nothing more, and this is what made him bite off Frodo's finger, take the ring and do his little dance of victory...but there was also a "chink of light" in his soul. There was some part of his mind, buried in his subconscious, perhaps, that was aware the ring was evil; always aware, for his long, long life that the murder of Deagol and his subsequent wretched existance was caused by the ring. I think that we can't discount the fact that there was some part of him that hated the ring, and perhaps desired its destruction. Now, if that part of him had so little control over his actions, there is no way he could have thrown the ring in the fire, something even Frodo, who consciously desired it, could not do. The only good action within the power of his will at that point was the one he took - he "stepped too far". I see it as one last desperate, half conscious impulse for good that caused him to fall. Now, I'm aware there is an article on this site, and several posters here, that flatly dismiss this idea, but to me it makes more sense than either the idea of a random fall, or of Eru pushing people into the crack of doom. (Actually, though, if it was some sudden impulse in Smeagol's psyche, this could itself be seen as an act of Eru, although it would also include a subconscious choice on Smeagol's part).

10-09-2006, 10:41 PM	#5
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Ah! A prophecy. Yes, why didn't I see that before? Of course, it still doesn't rule out the prophecy working through Smeagol, and his actions ... some part of him deciding, midjump, to swing one leg a few inches too far. The fate of Middle Earth hanging in the balance - Smeagol loses his balance. For some reason, I really like it & I think it's a shame Peter Jackson felt the need to change it.

10-10-2006, 07:27 AM	#7
Rikae Mellifluous Maia Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: A glade open to the stars, deep in Nan Elmoth Posts: 3,489	Just to be clear, I wouldn't say they caused it either, but predicted it; it wasn't a spell Frodo cast, but a flash of intuitive knowledge on his part, though he mostly likely wasn't aware of it at the time.